Good to hear positive... Brad,, please,, Sacramento,, Sacramento, when you come to CALI... I can handle the drive.. I cant wait to bring a crew...
Nationwide sounds like prayers have been answered.. It is my prayer that through trials you guys will fine tune the gathering and that men would be strengthened in their walks with Jesus the Christ. Great job guys. jC

ROCB: Rave on Christian Brother
Could not happen to a nicer guy
My the Lord we love continue to bless you.
Just Old Jim

Brad, I don't think this movement is of God. There seems to be an awful lot of embellishments from the world involved here. It appears to be the PK movement reinvented and repackaged. The rah rah of the "Contemporary Christian" flesh rearing it's ugly head again.

The lasting fruit that God is glorified in comes from keeping the commands of Christ in our hearts and dying to our fleshly lusts, not stirring them up.

May God Bless what he can in this movement, and may the rest be like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Steve Goettler
Butler, PA

Really? You don't "think" this movement is of God? How do you KNOW? Christian men are leaving the church in droves and I know why; If I have to listen to one more sermon about how we are supposed to pray for our enemies while the country is falling apart at the hands of moral relativists, pro-abortionists, and social engineers, I don't know what I'll do. God didn't make us to huddle in our masses and pray for the bad stuff to go away, He made us to ACT and to DO. Prayer is certainly a part of that, but so is action.

Even as you read this, there is legislation to silence any political speech from the pulpit (By the way, political speech can be interpreted as saying that Christians should be anti-abortion). Christians of old would defy the law and preach Christian values anyway. Now, however, the church is more worried about maintaining a tax exempt status than it is about inspiring men to act. You state, "It appears to be the PK movement reinvented and repackaged. The rah rah of the "Contemporary Christian" flesh rearing it's ugly head again." I say your defeatism is disappointing.

If any man speaks well for Christ and cast down Satan to further the kingdom of God, he is of God, for he is doing God’s will. Do you think Satan would be trying to wind souls for Christ? I don’t think so.
Christians are not second class citizens; if a man smite you (Not Buffet you and there is a difference) then turn the other cheek. This is interpreted as a conflict between Christians over scripture. Now let’s get the facts straight: I AM a Christian and if someone walks up and strikes me for no reason I going to deck him. God blessed Samson with strength, read the book of Judges.
If you have not been to a GodMen rally then don’t judge.

I pray for my enemies; I pray that they will come to their senses before we have to blow their heads off. If your church is preaching sermons on pro gay rights and pro-abortion I think you’re in the wrong church. My church teaches the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We teach and learn the Word of God and let the chips fall where they fall.
Now I’m not usually the one, on this thread that gets up tight. But you guys are judging without cognizant knowledge.
There is only one way to Heaven through Jesus Christ the Son of God. But There are ten million ways to witness to the saved and unsaved. That’s what GodMen is doing .
It is a unique way of reaching the men of American for Christ!

For what ever you think of it, It is my options that GodMen is of God.
If it comes down to defying my country to stand for my believe and speak it loudly, Then so be it. Do you remember what happened in 1776. History has been known to repeat it self!
And I think I have said enough tonight my blood pressure maybe going up.
That’s it for me
In the name of the one who loves us,

I’m Just Old Jim

It is my opinion that this movement is not of God, I am not saying that I "know'. However Jesus did say that we shall know true prophets from false prophets by thier fruits. And judging by the fruits (the statements, and actions) I can certainly see without too much difficulty, that this movement is just an extension of the same worldliness that has over taken the evangelical movement: "purpose driven" churches complete with occultic rock music disquised as worship and programs that segregate the family and will bend over backwards to get people to come.

What a stark contrast to the first century Christians who met together in one accord, endured great persecutions, and were greatly respected by the people who would not dare join them.

And yet today we have these "God men" who will blow people away if somebody says something that may offend them? Are these men that are filled with the fruits of the spirit? Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Meekness etc?

Christians may say that they are "anti abortion", but I ask you: Do these Christians love children the same way Jesus Loves children? Most Christians I know are willing to cut off God's Blessings and will not suffer any more children to come into thier lives. They may say that abortion is wrong and judge those who are pro abortion - but they are guilty of the same root sin of not loving Children and having the desire to prevent them from coming into the world. Did Jesus command us to limit the number of children a family should have? Yet we have taken this matter into our own hands. God desires a godly generation and a godly seed. Be fruitful and multiply! This command has been reaffirmed but never cancelled.
Jesus said suffer the little children and forbid them not, for such is of the Kingdom of God.

How many Christians have apopted the world's love of pleasure philosophy that limits the number of children and considers them a curse and a burden?

Stever:
Jesus didn't expect us to be fruit inspectors. Your last two posts did not come across as edifying, or as "iron sharpening iron". They come across as being very divisive, and that is NOT of God. I have not been to a God Men event (yet) but I have been to several PK events and I can tell you they are life-changing, life-healing, absolutely electric and of God. Like so many things in life, call it diversity, not everything is appealing to everybody. So you don't like the way the gospel is presented thru PK or God Men. My guess is you only know what someone else has opined about these events and they may not even have presented them in a fair way. Perhaps you could humble yourself and actually attend one of these events?

You seem to have your notions about what is of God and what is not of God. I think you are mistaught. Occultic rock music disguished as worship? Gee, I'm a bass player for my churches Praise and Worhip team. And I can tell you He loves it when we use the musical talents He has given us to sing HIS praises. Thank you very much. My God is not so small that He can't use every thing in His sovereignty to bring people to Himself, including rock music, including PK and God Men.

I'm sorry you feel the church is out of time. Be patient. The End Times are coming and we will be persecuted and driven underground. I'm sure that will finally put a spring into your writings.

BTW, do you even know what is worship in God's eyes? Perhaps you do, but I'll reinforce it for you. The Apostle Paul ( Romans 12:1) says, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual [ Or reasonable] act of worship." We, ourselves, are to be used for God's purposes. I've seen enough of Brad and have talked to him and written to him enough to have a sense of his heart for the Lord. He is a brother whether you believe it or not. And God IS using him in a powerful way, not only for spreading the gospel, but healing the wounded with his gift of comedy. I'm not a fruit inspector, but I don't like the fruit you've been slinging so far. --Ziobuck with a disapproving head shake.
P.S. What got you off on a tangent about "children" and Christians?

Rave on Ziobuck, you have taken over my job as preacher of record. You did good and that says about it all!
Preach on!
JOJ with a nod of approval at his friend Ziobuck!

Ziobuck - thank you for the response, I will try and address your comments here

Ziobuck wrote:
<<Jesus didn't expect us to be fruit inspectors. Your last two posts did not come across as edifying, or as "iron sharpening iron". They come across as being very divisive, and that is NOT of God.>>

Considering the fact that the substance of what I have been saying is mostly in opposition to the major elements of the God Men movement, I really can't disagree with you that my posts were not "edifying". However, my intention is not to be divisive, but only to challenge men that lean in this direction to honestly question and test whether this be of God. I would also hasten to mention at this point that just because some thing is 'divisive' does not necessarily mean that it is not of God. Do you always agree with what God wants for your life or does it cut against your natural way thinking at first? And then think of what the Lord Jesus himself said: in Matt 10:34 ' Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.' The truths of God are like a double edged sword, and they will cut and divide. Let us not forget Isaiah 55:9 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts'. Sadly however, one of the mantras of the new evangelical church movement is not to say or teach anything that might cause people to be offended or dis interested in coming to church. We sacrifice the commands of Christ on the alter of not offending any unbelievers. Now instead of discipling believers to teach the nations the commands of Christ Like Jesus told us to do, we went out and interviewed the unchurched people who where sitting in their living rooms watching TV every evening and asked them what they would like in a church experience. And therein my friends lies the mandate for the New Evangelicalism that has been very successful at sweeping people up out their lazy boys and ushering them into huge Mega complexes that now rock and plug them into "Jesus". But is it that same Jesus that the Apostle Paul preached when he said: "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain"? I question whether the two are compatible. I am getting off on a tangent again it appears.

Ziobuck wrote:
<<I have not been to a God Men event (yet) but I have been to several PK events and I can tell you they are life-changing, life-healing, absolutely electric and of God. Like so many things in life, call it diversity, not everything is appealing to everybody. >>

I have been to a PK event, and there is a lot of excitement, no question. There is something very powerful when 50,000 men are singing with all their strength and all their hearts "How Great Thou Art". I have been there, that was many years ago. In fact I am a firm believer that if there is going to be any significant movement for God - it will have to be carried by the men. God designed us to be the spiritual leaders. If we as men do not rise up and become the men that God intends for us to be, the enemy will surely plunder our treasures (wife and children) and take us captive at his will, and we will be slaves to self and sin and the ways of the world. I know these rallies can be exciting and life changing, but does it really prove that it is of God? The enemies of God are also in a battle for the souls of men and one of Satan's top priorities is to try and deceive the elect of God if that were possible. We already know that he is deceiving the nations. I just want to challenge you to be careful to what is appealing. God is usually far away from all the things that are appealing to men.

Ziobuck wrote:
<<So you don't like the way the gospel is presented thru PK or God Men. My guess is you only know what someone else has opined about these events and they may not even have presented them in a fair way. Perhaps you could humble yourself and actually attend one of these events? You seem to have your notions about what is of God and what is not of God. I think you are mistaught. >>

Perhaps I have been led astray - I am certainly not above or beyond being deceived. I have learned some things but I am always in the process of new learning. I do have notions about God, the question is: are those notions on the same page as God would have them to be? I hope so, but at the same time I need to press on toward the mark, I only know in part and can see through a glass darkly.

Ziobuck wrote:
<<Occultic rock music disguished as worship? Gee, I'm a bass player for my churches Praise and Worhip team. And I can tell you He loves it when we use the musical talents He has given us to sing HIS praises. Thank you very much. My God is not so small that He can't use every thing in His sovereignty to bring people to Himself, including rock music, including PK and God Men. I'm sorry you feel the church is out of time.>>

God has not ordained music to bring others to Christ. He ordained the foolishness of preaching for that purpose. Man always wants to use other 'cool' means to do God's work. However God is not obligated to change His ways, in order to be in step with man. Notice also that many churches have "worship leaders", I haven't found that office in the New Testament church. Does God really want to use Rock Music to win others to Christ? I haven't found that in the Bible either. Why is it that we Christians think we need to imitate the world in order to bring them to Christ? Jesus said we are the light of the world, and yet we clothe ourselves in the darkness that is of the world and hope they will join our church. Jesus said just let your light shine so they may see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven. They really don't want us to be like them anyhow. Doesn't the world offer enough carnal entertainment? Why does the church feel its mission is to better at it?

Ziobuck wrote:
<<Be patient. The End Times are coming and we will be persecuted and driven underground. I'm sure that will finally put a spring into your writings. BTW, do you even know what is worship in God's eyes? Perhaps you do, but I'll reinforce it for you. The Apostle Paul ( Romans 12:1) says, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual [ Or reasonable] act of worship." We, ourselves, are to be used for God's purposes. I've seen enough of Brad and have talked to him and written to him enough to have a sense of his heart for the Lord. He is a brother whether you believe it or not. And God IS using him in a powerful way, not only for spreading the gospel, but healing the wounded with his gift of comedy. I'm not a fruit inspector, but I don't like the fruit you've been slinging so far. --Ziobuck with a disapproving head shake. >>

Dear Ziobuck sir, I agree with presenting our bodies as living sacrifices according to Romans 12:1, and while we are there, lets add verse 2 also ... And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
I have no doubt that you trust your friend Brad Stine to be genuine. I have listened to him speak and I have seen the passion and sincerity he has for what he is doing. And I hope every blessing to be upon him. I just think there may be some wisdom in questioning the movement with some tough questions before getting too excited. If it is of God, how can a miserable fellow like me even think about stopping it? Far be it from me to be in the way when God is at work. Also, if it truly is of God, then all of what I say will be as the chaff that gets blown away in the wind. In the off chance that it may not be of God, then there could be chance that my writings will get some new springs as you say. Either way, God's truth will triumph, and the church will prevail against the Gates of Hell.>>

Ziobuck wrote:
<<P.S. What got you off on a tangent about "children" and Christians? >>

Children are always a relevant subject to Christianity. Jesus had a special love for them and I believe I was commenting on the abortion issue and children are certainly related to that.

Stever

Wow! What an honor to have my entire post dissected, and by a brother in the Lord. Well, I guess at least you gave some passing consideration to my comments. I should be humbled.

Though you said, “my intention is not to be divisive, but only to challenge men”, my question is why you didn’t start your original posts off in that manner, rather than with the polarizing “Brad, I don't think this movement is of God.” ? Here is a Godly man, Brad Stine, who tries to make a real difference in the world. He is not only using his precious spare time to reach the unreachable with the love of God, he actually is getting out of his comfortable seat in the pugh and taking a chance on God using him to bring others to Himself. So, what does Brad get for his trouble? He gets slander from a media that IS from the pit of hell (and who enjoy mocking anything remotely Christian). And, as a bonus, he gets a verbal slap, judgment, and not-so constructive criticism from a brother in the Lord? You should be proud you’re doing the Lord’s work.

You know, Stever, you can couch your analysis in Scripture all you want, but the reality is this…1) You came into the blog without credentials, i.e., what are you doing for the kingdom and how should we be following YOUR example 2) You came into the blog with an agenda, to opine about what you believe is lacking in Americas churches, to criticize anything you think is ungodly about how any church is strategizing to reach an American culture that is hell-bent, spiraling out of control from the top down (I know you and I share that concern) 3) You came into the blog like a bull in a china shop, not…loving a brother and challenging him with a few personal observations.

“ And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth”.

How well did you follow this command of Paul in 2 Timothy24-25? BTW, I could do better in this department myself.

Now let me say this. You do have some great points, especially how some churches “dilute” the truth and have become PC. Couldn’t agree with you more. Just be careful about painting with too broad a brush. BTW, IMHO, I’d rather have people plugged into Jesus in a Megachurch (no, I don’t go to one) than having them sit in their Lazy Boys watching an HBO skin flick.

I found it interesting how you can go to a PK event and still feel it is not of God. Why, because they use drums and guitars to praise God? You talk (rightly so) about movements of God being directed by men, yet you criticize two movements that are targeting “men” to just do what you say needs to be done. I don’t get it! BTW, Jesus basically said a house divided cannot stand. There is no way Satan is giving “GOD the glory” or receiving any himself at PK and Godmen events. In fact, a better gauge as to whether a movement is of God is what kind of spiritual attacks are taking place to prevent God from being glorified. The greater the attacks, the better proof that the events are of God. I think you’ll find both events squarely in Satan's disruptive cross-hairs.

Stever, you seem a little rigid about “music”. I can only believe God has not blest you with this gift. If he has, you’re an anomaly. You said, “God has not ordained music to bring others to Christ. He ordained the foolishness of preaching for that purpose.” Do you think, perhaps, that God enjoys just being praised? Of course! And, as a bonus to praising our awesome God, music can also prepare the hearts to receive the GOOD NEWS. I don’t know why you have such a hang up about music? Do you think the God of the NT and OT are the same? I do. How 'bout these Scriptures?

Ephesians 5:19-20, “Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Psalm 68:24-26: “Your procession has come into view, O God, the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary. In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines. Praise God in the great congregation; praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.”

2 Chronicles 5:12 , “All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.”

Oh, oh...I finally found it! ebd10 wrote "anti-abortionist" in his response to you that triggered a strawman attack on Chrisitians who don't follow God's commands to be fruitful and multiply. Interesting. Thank God for the cross, right?

Let me finally say that you have a lot of good thoughts. They just need a little focus and a little more grace. You seem to know your Scripture, but even the Pharisees knew Scripture and missed the LIFE giver. God's commands in the NT are the commands of love. Love God and others as yourself. In 1 Corinthian 13, the Apostle Paul said without love we are a "resounding gong or a clanging cymbal" (darn...another rap on musicians) .
Don't let a critical spirit affect the unity of believers. --Ziobuck agreeing about the essentials, the gospel.

ZioBuck wrote:
<<Wow! What an honor to have my entire post dissected, and by a brother in the Lord. Well, I guess at least you gave some passing consideration to my comments. I should be humbled.>>

Thanks for kudos. I would rather dissect words than frogs. Words are the most fascinating and powerful things known to man, we are here today because God spoke a word and brought us all into existence. Here is an interesting thought: We all live in the ‘universe’. Universe is made from two words: ‘uni’ – meaning single, and ‘verse’ – meaning spoken sentence. We live in or within, a single spoken sentence. Heb 11:3 through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. What does this have to with my position on music? Good question – I will address this later in the blog.

ZioBuck wrote:
<<Though you said, “my intention is not to be divisive, but only to challenge men”, my question is why you didn’t start your original posts off in that manner, rather than with the polarizing “Brad, I don't think this movement is of God.” ? Here is a Godly man, Brad Stine, who tries to make a real difference in the world. He is not only using his precious spare time to reach the unreachable with the love of God, he actually is getting out of his comfortable seat in the pugh and taking a chance on God using him to bring others to Himself. So, what does Brad get for his trouble? He gets slander from a media that IS from the pit of hell (and who enjoy mocking anything remotely Christian). And, as a bonus, he gets a verbal slap, judgment, and not-so constructive criticism from a brother in the Lord? You should be proud you’re doing the Lord’s work.>>

If I really do not think this movement is not of God, would that not be serious matter? If I saw your house on fire, would you rather I run into your house and shout out the message with all fervency, or take my time and try and build a relationship with you first before I mentioned – “Oh by the way – your house is on fire and it has been burning for the last couple of hours we have been chit chatting and getting acquainted”.

This is the same idea of friendship evangelism, which is not scriptural, but this not what we are talking about at the moment.

No offense to Mr. Stine and I don’t want to hurt your feelings either, but is it possible that you may have an elevated place in your mind reserved for Mr. Stine? No rhyme intended, and I am not saying that we should not esteem others as better than ourselves. There is a place for honoring people when honor is due and I am all for giving praise and edifying and thinking the best of everyone.

However, every one of us needs to go through the fires of criticism and even unjust accusations in order to be a man that God can use. Am I advocating the use unjust criticism for godly leaders – may it never be!

What I am saying is this: If this man and movement are standing upon the solid rock of Christ, then I want to be thoroughly convinced in my own mind so that I can be fully persuaded to either get behind it for support or fight against if it is not. And the beautiful thing about God’s works is this: whether we are for them or against them, we can only work to establish them. There is nothing in this whole universe that can come against God and be a victor, how sweet it is!

On the other hand, the works of the Devil can, should, and will be destroyed. And for this reason he is greatly terrified and disturbed. If you go around and poke at something with a truth probe and find yourself in a “thin skin” situation where there is screaming and yelling and ranting and raving, chances are you won’t find Christ on the inside. For He is not a chicken, and not afraid of the truth, He is the truth. The devil on the other hand is a liar and the father of all lies, and will get mad as hornet if you expose his schemes.

In all fairness, I did see with my own eyes the media broadcasts on ABC Nightline and other ABC News Interview on the morning show. It did not look to me at all like a slanderous, mocking treatment as you have suggested. It seemed to be a rather nice pat on the back and national free publicity for Brad and the GodMen rallies. I certainly did not see any persecution or neglect; they seemed like well planned plugs and pushes to help get the ‘ball rolling’. It looks like the GodMen have a friend in the media.

ZioBuck wrote:
<<You know, Stever, you can couch your analysis in Scripture all you want, but the reality is this…1) You came into the blog without credentials, i.e., what are you doing for the kingdom and how should we be following YOUR example 2) You came into the blog with an agenda, to opine about what you believe is lacking in Americas churches, to criticize anything you think is ungodly about how any church is strategizing to reach an American culture that is hell-bent, spiraling out of control from the top down (I know you and I share that concern) 3) You came into the blog like a bull in a china shop, not…loving a brother and challenging him with a few personal observations. “ And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth”. How well did you follow this command of Paul in 2 Timothy24-25? BTW, I could do better in this department myself.>>

1) I don’t think I am doing anything for the kingdom, except trying to seek it. Anything I do for the Kingdom will probably only need to be re done anyhow. So basically I am a ‘nobody’ as far as the God men are concerned, except maybe a pesky critic, depending how long I am permitted to blog against it and depending on who will respond to my blogs. As far as following my example? Dunno – I know myself if I attempt to follow any man I usually fall flat on my face. My only challenge to all the men would be to welcome your critics as friends and be leery of those who will say all the things you want to hear. (don’t be so quick to have your ears tickled)
2) Yes I did come into the blog with an agenda, but it is not a hidden agenda. I will lay it on the table, spell it out, and publish it abroad and babble on to any who is willing to listen.
3) A bull in a China shop is a good word picture to describe how I can come across to others. I know that is not exactly the best way to start conversations and relationships, and I am afraid that I did not hit the Bull’s eye either in following the admonition in 2 Timothy


ZioBuck wrote:
<<Now let me say this. You do have some great points, especially how some churches “dilute” the truth and have become PC. Couldn’t agree with you more. Just be careful about painting with too broad a brush. BTW, IMHO, I’d rather have people plugged into Jesus in a Megachurch (no, I don’t go to one) than having them sit in their Lazy Boys watching an HBO skin flick. I found it interesting how you can go to a PK event and still feel it is not of God. Why, because they use drums and guitars to praise God? You talk (rightly so) about movements of God being directed by men, yet you criticize two movements that are targeting “men” to just do what you say needs to be done. I don’t get it! BTW, Jesus basically said a house divided cannot stand. There is no way Satan is giving “GOD the glory” or receiving any himself at PK and Godmen events. In fact, a better gauge as to whether a movement is of God is what kind of spiritual attacks are taking place to prevent God from being glorified. The greater the attacks, the better proof that the events are of God. I think you’ll find both events squarely in Satan's disruptive cross-hairs.>>

First of all, with all due respect Mr. ZioBuck Sir, you are agreeing with a point that I did not make. I know this may sound a bit nit picky, but I did not use the words ‘dilute the truth’ or the PC word. Having said that – I can’t say that I disagree with the point you said I made, in principle and to a degree, but please allow me to give some qualifying remarks on this issue and see if I can make it even more confusing. I do not want you or your listeners to think that I play in the same political foot ball game as the “Conservative” Christian Right. That is a whole other ball of wax and a horse of a different color. That is not to say that I do not care about politics, nothing could be further from the truth. I hold a great deal of respect for those whom God has placed in authority in our land and I will seek to give honor to those whom honor is due. Now I am anything but politically correct, but I am also not about ranting and raving on the national soap boxes of Liberal vs Conservatives and left vs right debates and disputes. I would love to open up a can of worms here, but I will stick the blog at hand.

If you recall, I used the word “Jesus”, in quotes “”, to suggest that the Mega church Jesus is not the real Jesus, but as Paul says: “another Jesus” ( 2 Cor 11:4). In my not so humble opinion, I would rather not have them plugged into Mega Churches because they now have a false assurance that they are saved and going to heaven. They were better off were they were in their Lazy Boys, at least that way a preacher preaching the gospel could take them from their sin to the Cross. How do you take all of the unsaved people in churches and tell them that they need to be saved? Another can of worms … just know this: there will be many church people who will be shocked to find out when they stand before the Lord that He never knew them, and then they will be ushered into a lake of fire. Matt 7:22-23.

I feel strongly that we as men need to be strong spiritual leaders. We need to have discernment that will enable us to see when something is of God or not. If I could borrow your spiritual attack gauge for a minute, I want us to measure something. If Satan has these disruptive cross-hairs, he must be looking to fire an attack missile or something like that in the direction of God’s army. Now if the Media is from the PIT of hell, we should expect them to enjoy mocking any thing that is even remotely Christian, according to your assessment. I ask you: is the media mocking Brad Stine or the God men rallies? If you say yes – then I would like to see proof of that, and if you say no, then I ask you to read to me what your gauge is saying. According to your own spiritual gauge, Satan is encouraging the Godmen Movement. So far from the ‘pit of hell’ we have 2 Favorable media pieces and 0 attacks and the games are just beginning.

ZioBuck wrote:
<<Stever, you seem a little rigid about “music”. I can only believe God has not blest you with this gift. If he has, you’re an anomaly. You said, “God has not ordained music to bring others to Christ. He ordained the foolishness of preaching for that purpose.” Do you think, perhaps, that God enjoys just being praised? Of course! And, as a bonus to praising our awesome God, music can also prepare the hearts to receive the GOOD NEWS. I don’t know why you have such a hang up about music? Do you think the God of the NT and OT are the same? I do. How 'bout these Scriptures? Ephesians 5:19-20, “Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Psalm 68:24-26: “Your procession has come into view, O God, the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary. In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines. Praise God in the great congregation; praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.” 2 Chronicles 5:12 , “All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.” Oh, oh...I finally found it! ebd10 wrote "anti-abortionist" in his response to you that triggered a strawman attack on Chrisitians who don't follow God's commands to be fruitful and multiply. Interesting. Thank God for the cross, right? Let me finally say that you have a lot of good thoughts. They just need a little focus and a little more grace. You seem to know your Scripture, but even the Pharisees knew Scripture and missed the LIFE giver. God's commands in the NT are the commands of love. Love God and others as yourself. In 1 Corinthian 13, the Apostle Paul said without love we are a "resounding gong or a clanging cymbal" (darn...another rap on musicians) . Don't let a critical spirit affect the unity of believers. --Ziobuck agreeing about the essentials, the gospel.>>

God is a spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. God does not enjoy sensuality in any form, whether it is action, words, thoughts, attitudes, dress or music. Music is a form of human expression and thus it also carries with it the moral expression of our spirit. Just like we should not tolerate immodesty in dress or clothing, or lies in our words, or perversity in our thoughts, or deception in our actions, should our standards be any lower for music?

It has been said that music is a universal language we all understand. It is used to praise and or communicate values and thus it is also can be an influence for good or evil. It can not be morally or spiritually neutral as some have said. Anyone who says that is either lying or spiritually blinded to its nature.

What would a satanic heavy metal rock band be if it could not play rock music in any way? Would they then pick up singing songs, and hymns, and spiritual songs with Grace in their hearts to the Lord? I don’t think they would because that is not the kind of music that expresses the worship of their hearts. IMO they have sold their souls to the devil and will only play the kind of music that the devil likes, and is glorified by.

Being in the presence of Christ would cause a true worshipper of Him to be respectful, humbled, and filled with a wonder and peace that is totally pure and holy.

Rock & Roll on the other hand is loud, rebellious, and rudely aggressive. This is not in keeping with Holiness of Christ.

So why should a Christian who is dedicated to being transformed into the image of Christ have a desire to fill his soul with the same kind of music that a Satanic Rock band would? There is no fellowship between Christ and the Devil, so how can a Christian have fellowship with God using Rock Music?

There are only 2 choices when it comes to rock in my opinion, either you listen and submit yourself to it and let yourself be controlled by it, or you flee from it and only listen to melodious uplifting music that has balance and order and where the melody is the leading element.

We are in a spiritual battle and music is not spiritually neutral. Go on rock music fast and ask God to give you discernment in this area.

Stever

Stever:
If you promise not to replay my entire posts (you know, everyone can read what I previously wrote and it's so difficult to sift through the "chaff" to get to your comments), then I promise not to put words in to your mouth (like "PC" and people "diluting the truth"). Ya know, I should have listened to the Spirit check when I wrote that. I just thought I knew where you were going with your comments. My bad.

Re: your comment about not building relationships when someone needs to be warned their house is of fire? Quite a funny example. Thanks, I needed that bit of humor. The fact is now your arguments ring hollow. If you were really thinking about sounding the alarm on God Men, perhaps you should have private messaged Brad (you're smart, you could have figured out how to do it), or written an editorial in a Christian magazine, or called a Christian radio show to sound the alarm. But, the reality is you just wanted to put your 2 cents worth in a blog to show your discontent.

Christianity is ALL about relationships, i.e., relationship between us and God, and to one another. God, of course, restored a relationship with us by taking care of what caused the broken relationship (sin). BTW, there are places in the world where you cannot evangelize. You remember reading something about being "wise as serpents"? We have missionary friends in Nepal who would be put in jail (or worse) if they did so. So how do they evangelize? They build relationships and love on the people they're living amongst. When asked why, then they can say they are commanded by God to love them and then they can show them how they can have a relationship with the living God.

I went to listen to Josh McDowell a month ago. He basically said that the only way to reach teens in our culture today who think "Truth is whatever you believe it to be" is to be involved with them, to have a relationshp with them. If you have that relationship, you can better teach them about real TRUTH (Jesus). And he wasn't necessarily talking about reaching the secular teens as much as our OWN Christian teens. It is all about relationships.

Re: elevating Brad Stine in my mind. Its always great to have someone tell me how I think. It's like this out of body experience. Well, first of all, I've seen Brad's credentials. And, not surprisingly, none have seen yours that we may follow YOUR example. IMO, Brad would view himself as I view myself, neither better nor worse than any other sinner; just an average Joe. But I confess, I do admire this brother who I believe is blest with a gift of comedic healing (laughter the best medicine). He is using his chosen profession to reach people for the Lord. My sphere of influence is not the same, but I don't feel I'm any less blest than Brad. My model is (and always will be) Christ. Sorry I may have disappointed you.

Re: media attack on Brad Stine's God Men movement? I confess, I personally have not seen it (nor have I been looking for it). I remember reading in several Brad Stine blogs that Brad received some hits from an LA Times article (as I recall) and other media mischaracterizing about what was going on at the events. Now I DO have some experience with reading negatives on PK events and experiencing first-hand some liberal groups "picketing" PK events. So, for me...it is not a stretch to see a spiritual battle going on. Perhaps you experienced some "fair-minded" reporters who actually reported a favorable story on Brad? Hmmm, ya know, Satan isn't hiding under every rock.

God does not enjoy sensuality in any form? Well, all I can say is He made us to experience things, pleasurable things, with all our senses. Read Song of Solomon lately? You think God disapproves of the sensuality I have with my wife, an absolute blessing from God? Of course not. I think you are misapplying Scripture to suit your "style" of worship.

Re: music. Not sure where you are going here and not even sure what you think is acceptable music in worship and what isn't, what are acceptable instruments in worship and what aren't. It sounds like you've narrowed your focus to "heavy metal" bands? There are all sorts of rock and roll styles. I think SOME rock and roll music is loud, rebellious, and rudely aggressive as you characterize, but certainly not all. Some music which is heavy into dischord is Satanic, IMO, but generally I believe it is the lyrics that determine whether something is "for God" or "against God". Most songs of praise I sing are very Scriptural in nature. You seem to think there are only a few worship styles to our Lord that are respectful, humbled, full of wonder and peace, and totally pure and holy? Not so. That isn't even Scriptural. You have opinions. Fine. Go to a church that worships the Lord as you wish. (Thank you Lord for diversity). Personally, I think the P&W music my team plays (bass guitar, drums, keyboards, two other guitars, and three vocalists) are "melodious uplifting music that has balance and order and where the melody is the leading element". Some of the seniors in the congregation prefer old hymns (I like that "style" of P&W also), but I guess they tolerate our style of music. BTW, I'm not a fan of "gospel" style music, but I recognize it's a preference thing. --Ziobuck having a difference of opinion

You have a depth to your character that is refreshing. I can not even get some pastors to go with me for more than one or two rounds. Yet you are willing to take my abuse and tolerate my lengthy diatribes. They don’t want to waste time on critics like me when they have bigger fish to fry, like nursing the relationships of their church members and making sure the church is giving them a place to get connected in what ever way they can. The last thing they want to do is discuss doctrinal issues, that could lead to divisions and schisms, which would not be of God, “Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!”

Anyhow, do I really need to bother Brad Stine or Christian radio shows to sound an “alarm”? My battle is not with people like Brad Stine or the people in Christian Rock Bands. Our battle is with the spiritual forces of wickedness in high places and the strongholds of false imaginations in the souls of people and in our own souls. Our battle is not with flesh and blood, although it may appear to be, and many will be offended at things that are said. The best way to fight this battle is to stay in the word, prayer, and wait for the opportunities that God gives to speak or do stuff. Our goal should be to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. The Battle is the Lords, We just need to keep our swords sharp and endure hardness as good soldiers of Jesus Christ. He doesn’t really need me, but if He does use me it will be a privilege and an honor.

We will have all eternity to enjoy relationships and fellowship with the redeemed of the Lord, and what a blessing that will be. So how much do I want to pursue building relationships with people in their lost and ungodly ways? I don’t know – I want to become all things to all people so that I may by some means win some, but I don’t want to compromise my walk with the Lord just to build a relationship them. How close to the water do we need to get before falling in ourselves? Jesus said to follow Him and He will make us a fisher of men. It is interesting note at this point the method of fishing that was employed by James and Peter. They fished at night mostly. Fish are attracted to light. They would position their nets and then hold out their lanterns and the fish would swim up to the light and then once all the fish were within the scope of the net, they would simply pull them up. In today’s method of fishing we use a ‘bait and hook’ approach. This tactic is also called ‘bait and switch’. The fish sees a nice juicy worm floating the water and then goes for it, only to realize that the whole thing was a set up to get him hooked on to a line and then get reeled in. This reminds me of the evangelism methods of some who use rock music or some other entertainment gimmick to bait unbelievers, and then pull a switch on them by presenting the gospel message, bait and switch. Jesus said we don’t have to do that. Just let your light shine and the fish (men/women) will come to it. Then we draw them in with nets of love. No hidden agenda’s, no gimmicks just the truth spoken with Love.

I think I have far more than my 2 cents worth in, I have been running at the mouth here now for a couple of weeks, not sure if it is doing any good or not. Probably just helping to solidify in the minds of those who are reading these arguments that they realize more clearly how much they disagree. Who knows, and who cares, only God’s word is going to last forever anyhow. I do enjoy the chance however to be a critic on this issue and I do hope that I am on to something. I would hate to have spent all this time only to realize that it was all just hot air and bad breath, but that is the risk I take when opening my mouth.

Our relationship with God will dictate how successful our relationships with others will be. I can not understand my wife unless I am in tune with the Lord to the point where the Holy Spirit will counsel and translate things for me during a conversation. Often there is no chance to prepare what you are going to say and how you are going to say it, sometimes conversation with wives just happen and you are left there wondering how you are going to get through it. Usually if we have been walking with the Lord and staying close to Jesus, we will come out smelling like a rose, but of course if there are issues, God will sometimes allow there to be conflicts to humble us.

I have noticed one thing with relating to others, and I am by no means very good at relationships, but there is something within each person I meet like a divine sensor that can detect pride. If the pride sensor registers too high on the scale then there is a desire to correct that. This is a very strange phenomena but I think it based on the fact that neither God nor man will despise a broken spirit and a contrite heart.

I have not listened to Josh McDowell in a long time, but if I could get a message to the teens of our day it would be this: Honor your father mother which is the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with you and that you may live long upon the earth (in order to advance God’s Kingdom) Satan has been so successful in getting teens and parents to react to each other and thus tearing them from the most important influence and channel for God’s blessing in their lives.

I understand what you mean by an out of body experience, even though I understand you are not meaning that in a literal sense. It is so important for us men to get counsel and wisdom and many perspectives. Especially important are insights that help us understand what we are doing and where we need to be going, with urgency. Constantly nurturing a God given vision that helps us to identify targets we need to hit before our time is up.


Here’s the whole thing about church, music, preferences, and worship styles ECT. God did not intend for our church buildings to be places of ‘worship’. Our body’s are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and like Jesus told the woman at the well, worship is not about being done at this place or that place. God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you. God looks in our hearts to see if we are meditating in His truth and walking in the spirit. We have created a false understanding in our minds that worship is something we do at church. God wants His house to be a house of prayer, not a house of worship. Jesus said My father’s House shall be called a house of prayer, but you have turned into a den of thieves. We have created houses of worship using sensual forms of music and other gimmicks to attract the world and in effect have tuned God’s house into a den of thieves because we are robbing God of His rightful Glory. When we borrow the inventions of the world and offer them to God as our sacrifice to Him, how can He be pleased with that?

What is up with that?

Stever

Stever:
Excellent post! You DO understand the real battle is against the principalities of the dark side. I totally identify with your comment "how much do I want to pursue building relationships with people in their lost and ungodly ways?" Man...that's me. But, most of the world is lost and needs God's people to be there at the right moment to point the way to Him.

Your comment on not understanding your wife is the common thread of all mankind. Women are truly a blessing...but also, a mystery in how they think about things. I have been very hurtful at times to my better half in the poor ways I have communicated with words or body language. They are generally sensitive creatures, true? God must have known what He was doing when He built a "being" to complement man.

Your comment on "pride" is also spot on. I think I can detect it so easily in others because of the speck in my own eyes. Ha.

Your comment on Josh McDowell is exactly the kind of things he was saying also. The guy is an awesome apologist for the Lord and truly a lover of our youth. He has a lot of passion.

I agree with you about what worship is in God's eyes: It's presenting our bodies as living sacrifices to a living Lord to use as He wishes. Where we differ is our thinking is about corporate worship. God wants us to have fellowship with believers. He wants us to encourage one another. He loves when His people lift up their voices in praise to Him because Scripture tells us He is a jealous God who hates idolatry.

When Jesus said, "My father’s House shall be called a house of prayer" He was contrasting what the thieves were doing. Just because He didn't articulate everything about His Father's House doesn't mean He would disapprove of His people not only praying to Him in His house, but offering themselves as living sacrifices, praising Him in their testimonies, and especially praising Him in song ("Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord" (Eph 5:20)). To suggest God is being robbed of His rightful glory when His people are lifting up their hearts/souls in songs of praise to Him with His own Scripture set to music is...insulting! (I'm a big boy. I can take insults, but prefer not to from a "brother").

Your mischaracterizations of "inventions of the world" misses the mark, Stever. Like any other man-made (God-inspired) tool, man can choose to use it for good, or for evil. The "worldly tool" is not inherently evil, but how we choose to use it could be. Can I kill someone with a hammer? Sure. Can I use the internet for eye candy vice information research? Absolutely. Can I write a song which glorifies Satan with dischordant notes, rhythms, and lyrics that are "sensual". Yes! But I, in turn, ask you, what kind of a God would ...give His people the gift of music; the passion to write a thank you song of praise to Him (using His words); the talent to learn to make beautiful melodies and harmonies with voices and instruments made from His creation; then despise these very "worldly" people praising Him in corporate worship? That wouldn't be a God I would choose to love.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Romans 14:5-8 suggests as much. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. FOR NONE OF US LIVES TO HIMSELF ALONE AND NONE OF US DIES TO HIMSELF ALONE. If we live, WE LIVE TO THE LORD; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, WE BELONG TO THE LORD."

Stever, you're on the right track. Let's rejoice in Colossians 3:15-17, shall we:

"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another WITH ALL WISDOM, and as you SING PSALMS, HYMNS, AND SPIRITUAL SONGS with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, DO IT ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, giving thanks to God the Father through him."
--Ziobuck better understanding his friend, Stever

Ziobuck – We have come a good ways in developing the kind of fellowship that leads to the Holy Grail of all fellowshipping. And that is the ultimate place of being in one accord. And I’m not talking about a Honda Accord. The more we teach and admonish one another from the word of God like it says in Colossians 3:15-17, the closer we get to the place of true kingdom power. I love the verse in Acts 4:31-32

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Stever

Brad - Our church has chosen "Pursuing Biblical Masculinity" as its theme for Men's Ministry this year. I just recently found out about your Godmen movement and about you. What is the best way to find out about your booking availability? We'd love to have you come do a first night routine at our retreat this year in August.

Its been a long time since I have read something that has made my blood boil like it did when I read the post about rock music....Only because I have been involved with youth so long, and I have had my reservations. But once again, experience with something first hand, that someone else can just comment on without experiencing it does something to my stomach that cannot be described.. and I'm pretty sure its not just gas.

Is country Christian music straight from the DEVIL??? is it?, is opera from the devil?? It is if the opera singer is a worshipper of Satan now isnt it.. So let me get this straight, all these people that have given their Lives to Christ are misleading teens and young adults and old people into the GATES OF HELL unknowingly??, all the people that have turned their lives over to Jesus have been mislead by the people playing ROCK MUSIC and have actually signed a death warrant instead.. Oh what a miserable life we lead.. and our intentions were so good.. you have got to be kidding me!!!


Growing up in the heavy metal era,, being bombarded with heavy metal music of which the majority was not glorifying God.. obviously,,, I must say when I turned my life over to the loving care of Jesus the Christ It was a nice break to BREAK away from secular music... God had changed my heart instantly.. and I liked it that way. And nothing has ever been the same..

Being a youth pastor I have learned many things about our teens... they could care less about pipe organs and some old school singer standing up there playing his guitar that has made a worship song out of some secular song........and no matter how many sermons I preach showing the importance of old Hymns,, they arent buying it.... They will however listen to newer versions of Hymns,, WHY?.. Because that is the language they speak.....Sing to the Lord a new song.

So all of a sudden the devil owns music huh....??? thats funny because I thought all good gifts came from God.. I didnt think God could give a bad gift. The Devil uses everything to get a strangle hold on those that let their gaurd down.. GO on tour with some of these guys and you will see the same thing when you follow Bill whatever hisnameis from church on Sunday.. sometimes lukewarmness, sometimes sin,,, sometimes doubt,, and a myriad of other problems that frequent the lives of Christians on a daily basis when we dont focus on our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ..

Let me get this straight,,, I go down to Wal-Mart and buy some beautiful instrumental composition with no words.. and it just sounds so lovely that I must listen more.. not knowing that the person that recorded it has been casting spells on the music and anyone that would buy it to further the corruption and demonic forces in this world, unlikely? probably,, but more likely than a band of CHRISTIANS that decide to use their gifts to win souls using music.... So it all comes down to Rock music huh????? We dont serve a God that can take a style of music and turn it towards good?...WHAT???? Would that not depend on the heart of the person with the gift?? would not God be the only judge of that?? What planet is this??
Is it not GODS?

Just a question,, would you even be caught dead at a Christian Rock concert to see what happens after the music plays?? have you seen what goes on?. Have you seen the thousands upon thousands of teens that never would have even heard the gospel had it not been for those Christian ROCKERS who love Jesus with all their hearts witnessing to these teens that have basically turned away from anything churchy or uptight, or dress cody,, or whatever..... and they do it all across the nation bringing in thousands upon thousands of teens each week between all of them.. Some of them have traveling Pastors,, and they should. Most of these CHRISTIANS are young,, immature in their walks,, but they are hanging around bands with maturity.. Some are just like the church. ITs a process to see who is ready for the ministry and who is in it for themselves.. and we have seen this year alone, that just because you are in the ministry and lots of people trust you, and you are well versed in Gods word, doesnt mean you will not fail.. RIGHT?? and I know this for I have failed today,, and I didnt even listen to one ROCK SONG.

I know teens that are saved.. right now, today, as a result of going to a concert to rock out,, hearing a positive message and then hearing the gospel by people they look up to... and realizing the people that are witnessing to them do not want them to look up to them,, but to Jesus..

I will say this.. if one does not experience God moving through something like Christian men who have started rock bands,, then one could easily make the mistake that it doesnt seem right.. its just not traditional, and it reminds me too much of myself when I wasnt saved, or that guy that did drugs when he was listening to rock music.... BUT GUESS WHAT!! its not the same, not in any way,, it doesnt even come close. I know, because I am an old guy that is set in his ways, and I dont want to admit that kids are getting saved by something Loud and obnoxious... and then right in the middle of it, these same teens will have their hands in the air stretched out to a Living GOD, as the screamo punk band breaks out into spontaneous worship out of nowhere.. I have seen it happen time and time again... God will go where HE is invited.. even if Joe blow has himself convinced that its not of GOD.. it sure is to the one who is getting saved in that wonderful moment in time....

Hey, I have a great idea.. why dont we sit back and do nothing, and not communicate with our teens in their current state of awareness.... I'm sure they will come in by the droves to listen to music they hate.. great idea.. who cares right??? Lets just sit in our empty church walls and wait,, or go down to the high school where we arent even allowed most of the time,, or have a nice pizza party.... whooppaadeee doooooo everyones saved..

Give me a break.

How bout we just keep the blue haired old lady alive on a respirator, give the pipe organ a tune up,, and keep things safe, and churchy,, and absolutely FAKE.... Never changing the way we do anything and just settling for the few that do happen to come in... Is there anything wrong with using a HOOK to save someones life??? If perhaps some people have started Christian Rock and Roll bands who are in it for themselves,, thank God, there is God to judge that and deal with it.. IF they are not supposed to be there, God will remove them.. and that goes for the suit wearing pastor that thinks he's fooling everyone flashing his fancy jewelry on TBN while I sit there and ponder.

A twist on Promise Keepers huh???? like Promise Keepers holds the key to innovative ideas in mens ministry..... It was a good idea, where a lot of men decided,, HEY, THIS IS A GOOD IDEA, LETS DO IT,, lets do it together, and lets invite God into this huge stadium and watch what happens. Lets humble ourselves, and get real for a weekend. And maybe, if we are lucky, a couple of us will actually take it out of the stadium and apply it to our families... what a concept!!!!!!!!!!! OF COURSE IT WORKED!!!.. For the same reason GODMEN will work,, because men will believe in each other, support each other, quit goofing around with this walk with Jesus in our spoiled little American world,,, and LIVE FOR GOD..

I hope twelve more just like it pop up around the world.. and men go every weekend, I hope they do one with men and women and provide a day care where someone does a mini GODMEN for kids...

Men need something like this every weekend because we ARE MOSTLY BONEHEADS THAT NEED CONSTANT REMINDERS OF WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST...... Not to mention prompting just taking out the trash...

Something needs to change.... All these churches with all of their disagreeing theologies and always griping and complaining why the world doesnt come crashing through the church door.. ITS NO WONDER.. we cant even agree with each other.. and everyone says,, ITS ABOUT JESUS,, ITS ABOUT JESUS.. I got news for everyone,, IF people are not getting saved using every means neccesary,, then its really not about JESUS now is it?.. quit griping and complaining about every little thing that comes down the pike just because it doesnt line up with your perception of church, could it be perhaps that isnt the case? could it be because one may feel it doesnt line up with scripture... HERE WE GO AGAIN.. you give me ten scriptures why I'm following Satan, and I'll give you 15 why you're wrong.. Perhaps God may want us to REASON... do you think GOD had in mind a dress code and some guy wearing cologne so thick you need a respirator to sing hymns next to him........ Is that Biblical, no, its insanity and has to be in violation of the clean air act.

The reason why we go through these changes in ministry,, is because there's not one person on this earth that has it figured out yet.. we just keep wanting and desiring some magic bullet to penetrate the hearts of those who are lost.. why do we desire that change for someone else?, because it is so amazing what has truly happened to us that we have to tell the world.. and if we screw up occasionally doing it.. GOD KNOWS OUR HEARTS,, and GOD WILL DEAL WITH US..

other than that,,,, yeah, I agree with everything you said.

May God truly bless you as you seek His face.. because lets face it, thats what it comes down to... If I am truly seeking GOD, not only does GOD know that,,,,, but I will be put in my place if my heart is true, and put in my place if its not.

What I wouldnt do to loose this flesh, oh how thankful I am for Jesus.

P.S... stevers, seriously man.. I am sorry I disagree with you so much on this subject.. I'm just tired.. I'm tired of preaching an empty gospel, I'm tired of just settling for things the way they are.. I'm just tired..

I really dont mean a thing by it. IF anything, I just encourage you my brother to stay in Gods word. Pray for me my brother, that I would see things early as I walk with Jesus, so that I may not be hindered from His plan for me.. I truly pray for the best in your walk. I pray that everything goes well for you this week. And if it doesnt, I pray you learn from the experience.. sometimes I just get so tired of the complacent worlds we have built around us.,,,Not allowing Jesus to move.. because of our comfort zones.

jC

I have read every thing posted here and each person here has chosen scripture to back up what they believe.
And the up shot of the whole thing is this,” What you Believe — You Believe!”

There are way to test sprits and doctrine. But you have to keep the subject and the time line straight.
How does it line up with the Bible? Not what we think or what our opinion is on a subject.
Jesus is pretty clear on this matter.

Mark: 9:38, 39 and 40: You may also want to pick up parallel scripture in Like: 9: 50

38: John said to Him (Jesus) “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he did not follow us”

39: But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will reform a miracle in My name, and soon be able afterward to speak evil of Me.

40: “For he who is not against us is for us.”

First Jesus was talking to his Disciples, so we can conclude that his instruction were for us as well. I assume we are all Christians. The some one, that John saw was conducting Christian acts, was casting out demons. It could have been healing or preaching , same principle. But what appears to have upset John was, he was doing it “without the Apostles.” Oh that must be a No, No.
Jesus, in essence said, Don’t do that, don’t stop him.
The key ingredient here was the some one was performing the miracle in Jesus Name. If such a work is done in this manner, how can that person doing the work, speak evil against the name he is performing the work in.

Verse 40 says it all. He is for us. That’s the test.

Some days the fact that I am now ancient makes me grieve for my younger days; but with age comes patience and hopefully some understanding. It is always a wonderful thing to see people passionate for the Will Of God. We as old codgers must remember to remind these younger ones, That the Will of God is always revealed in “The Word Of God”.

In the days when I was a young man, I was lamb blasted for bringing a coffee pot into my Sunday School Class. It was never done. There had to be a deacon meeting because I was such a sinner and what was doing was “Not of God”
What the main problem was it was not what had been practiced in the church before. I was teaching the young married couples. And Coffee and donuts help bridge the social gape for the new folks. What I am trying to say is that things and social issues change. Look at the cloths our Grand parents wore the car we drive. Ask your self these questions:
1) Does this lift up the Name of Jesus
2) Is it done in the Name of Jesus
3) Does it encourage others to follow Jesus?
4) Is it reaching those that need the Lord ?
5) Does it recognize Jesus as Christ the King of Kings
our savior?
Test the water but don’t judge the creek, God has a way of changing the flow. Sometime a creek, one day a river.

P.S. The coffee pot stayed the vote by the deacons was 4 to 3 in favor. The Class went from 3 to 23 then split in two classes and both grew and split again. The were many people saved in that class and two new churches started, but that’s a story for another day.
In the name of the one who loves us,
I’m Just Old Jim

It is my hope and prayer that God will reveal to many in our day the need to drive out the 'music changers' from the church. Rock and Roll has had a devastating moral influence in our society. And yet somehow, there have been many ungodly men in these last days who have crept into the church and over time have executed an agenda to change the worship of a Holy God into Rock and Roll experience.
The similarities between the money changers in Jesus day and the music changers in our day are significant.
1) Both operate in the house of God
2) Both Rob God of His Glory
3) Both function for personal gain
4) Both hinder the true worship of a Holy God
God desires us to worship Him in spirit and truth. That means being filled with the spirit and being filled with the truth in all meekness and holiness, receiving with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save your soul.
The idea that God gave us rock and roll is lie from the devil. Rock and Roll is most certainly a gift that we got from the world. Listening to rock and roll will help us to be friends with the world. Notice how many contemporary Christians today think and dress like the world, and really behave no differently from those that do not claim to be Christian.
The bottom line is this: 1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Listening to rock and roll is like committing spiritual adultery, because it causes our spirits to give attention to the sound that is dominant in the world, and turns it away from worshipping God in Spirit and truth.
James 4:4 Compares adultery with friendship with the world.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Christians have the same problem that Israel had, and that is being mingled among the heathen and learning their works.
Psalm 106:34-37
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works. 36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. 37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
If Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple with anger and a whip, what is going to do to the music changers in the house of God today?

Stever

Stever:
The god in your own mind is so small. My God is so much bigger. God works everything (read EVERYTHING for good for those that love Him.
Of the four things you mentioned, only the first applies. Music is in the temple. Whether you want to label it "Rock and Roll", of the Devil, etc., is your choice and between you and your god. My God loves music, IS music, and inspires me through music that PRAISES Him and glorifies Him instead of robbing Him of glory as you suggest. Most I know in church worship do not play for personal gain, but if God has given someone the talent to make a living being a professional musician, I say that glorifies God. Music hindering worship? You are so...so...wrong. But, brother, I'll lift you up in prayer that you may see some day soon how big our God truly is. He does not judge the external, but the heart. And frankly, you have a very undiscerning heart. You pass judgment on brothers and have no idea what you are talking about.

As usual, since you cite so much Scripture you can't help revealing some of God's truth. I think you are just misapplying some of it. I'm, as usual, just taking exception to some of your broader comments. Don't be so heavenly minded that you can't be of earthly good to our Lord.
--Ziobuck, an ambassador for Christ.

Ziobuck wrote:
<<Stever: The god in your own mind is so small. My God is so much bigger.>>

Jesus said straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life (sounds like something a small god would say) but wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in there at (If God is really big, then why is the path way that leads to life so small and narrow?)

No one has ever accused the way of rock and roll to be narrow and small, for there are so many millions that crave it’s addictive sound and follow it’s players. Just by virtue of the shear numbers of people that have to have it, the gate and way would need to be very wide.

Ziobuck wrote:
<< God works everything (read EVERYTHING for good for those that love Him.>>

The key word here is ‘Love’. Are rock & rollers in Love with the God of the narrow way, or are they in love with the world and the god of this world from where their music is from? Loving the world is making you an enemy with God. Last I checked, God was not planning to work out all things for good for His enemies, unless you want to become part of His footstool.

If your God is happy that you use Rock and Roll to worship Him then, far be it from me to stand in the way. I would think now that since you refer to my God as a ‘small god’, that it is really up to my ‘small god’ to demonstrate if He is bigger than your God, the god who loves Rock & Roll.

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens.

Stever

Stever:
Again, you're misapplying Scripture. I haven't read anything in the NT or OT about "rock and roll". It seems you have broadly applied this evil to the "World". Here's a flash. God created us. He created our emotions. He understands how powerful music is. He created music. Just examine music for music's sake. Any of it can be "worshipped", even classical. Also, what makes one "style" of music more Satanic than another is really about "opinion" and how legalistic one is IMO. Now lyrics can be very demonic, very glorifying of sin (read soft rock Steely Dan music glorifying drug use). But, to say Praise and Worship music in a rock and roll style that lifts up and glorifies God (not Satan) is Satanic is just plain...well....ignorant. Your not a person who thinks only a "monks" life will please God, are you?
If I'm a child of God (I know I am because of HIS promises...not YOUR judgement), how can I also be an enemy? Nothing can separate me from God's love, according to Paul. Life can't, death can't, the demons can't, Stever can't. I've learned God hasn't revealed all my failings to me all at once since I've become 'saved' by His grace over a decade ago. The reason? He doesn't want me to implode. Now perhaps some day, the Spirit will convict me that YOU are right about all this (very doubtful). When that day comes, I will pray a thank you to God for your wisdom, Stever. In the mean time, you may want to focus on the "love" of your brothers. Wouldn't want to drive any one to the dark side.
--Ziobuck apparently a footstool to the living God who loves me and died for my sins, even the sin of loving Rock and Roll-styled music that glorifies Him

Now isn’t that something? We can’t find anything about Rock & Roll in the Bible and yet it is one of the major elements of today’s modern evangelical church. What is wrong with this picture? Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. Does Jesus speak through rock & roll which is not even mentioned in the Bible? Yes – God created everything, but He also gave limitations as to what we should have experience with (back to the issue of the narrow path) He does not want us to have knowledge of evil by experiencing it. He wants us to avoid evil and stay far from it. This is why Jesus prayed that we would kept from evil. Satan will masquerade as an angel of light and so will his ministers. Spiritual discernment is needed to be able to see this. The things of God can not be experienced by the flesh and they can not be understood by our minds, we can only understand them with our spirit. For the things of the spirit are foolishness to man because they are spiritually discerned. I don’t mean to sound harsh here, I mean this in the most delicate and polite way that you could possibly imagine. I know I am not supposed to judge, I am trying to go for discernment here and not judgment. I just don’t want to sit back and throw stones at this issue; I am willing to do what ever it takes to contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints.

Evaluating music will need to go beyond just the lyrics. Remember the proverb: The simple believes every word, but the prudent man looks well to his going. It is very significant at this point to answer the question: in the time of Jesus, who was it that gave a very clear declaration of who He was? Jesus would often ask His disciples what the people thought about who he was. However, we have the biblical record of demons and evil spirits giving a true declaration of the Son of God.

Matt 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mark 1: 23-25 23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

Acts 19:15 - And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

The point being here is that even the demons can give lip service to believing in God. The question is: can we discern the spirit of the voice? And God certainly does not want His praise coming from demons, not any more I suppose than He wanted to hear the prayers of the Pharisees, who thought they could be heard through their much speaking, and public prayers.

Stever

For the man who judges the worship or work of others he will be judged according to manner he judges.
The is a major difference in a money changer and “music changer"
Your observations Stever borders on the ridiculous. First of all these young people are not music changer they are music makers. Have you ever heard, “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord”? Well the young people are doing the same thing you do when you sing
“Shall we gather at the River”, Now you don’t have to like what they sing and you sure don’t have to listen. But when you work with these young people and see that they are work hard at serving the Lord then you learn to listen to their brand of music with a different heart.
The money changers in the Temple that you refer to, and I am sure you already know, were selling and exchanging items and animals to be use in the daily sacrifices by the Jewish people and they were cheating their customers. So Jesus ran them out.
Now I try not to judge anyone on their belief, and I don’t unless they become a stumbling block to others. So I went to the scriptures to Matthew 18:6 – 7 but mostly 7

“Woe to the world because of it stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but, that through whom the stumbling block comes!”

Now Christ is talking about those that cause a young one to stumble.
Use the test as I gave them to you. If in your best understanding it is “Of God”
then you are not a stumbling block. But if is not then you are.
I know personally what it is to see a youngster led to Christ and what a beautiful site to see. If a child comes to know Christ as Lord I don’t care if they are playing the theme from Star Wars?
Remember, “ The Son Of Man has come to save that which was lost.” Get behind me Satan!
That’s all I got to say about that.
In the Name of the One who Loves Us
I’m Just Old Jim

Stever,,, one is either saved, or they are not saved. Here is my simple question for you. Is everyone that is involved with Christian alternative, rock and roll music going to hell as a result of their music. Despite their obvious hearts to serve???? That is the question. Take your time.

If your answer is yes... then that also means there are people singing hymns on Sunday who are also going to hell...... The answer is probably a most definite yes..

The road is narrow in the church and the concert.... and the office...

You are either saved, or you are not.

God is the only one that knows this information.

Find a scripture that proves me wrong.

It is true that by our fruits, by our Love we are known to others. This is true. So,,, if I bear much fruit and do many amazing things for my community and my family,, but the whole time am just using the church thing to further my agenda and popularity.. is it not nice to know, that God knows?.. You dont!!!!!! but God does!... That is the beauty of serving something higher than you or myself.

The customs within the different denominations have changed over time...in many areas. I want you to show me a scripture that proves that Satan is the inventor,, the creator of Rock music which is split into many different types................ You had made a reference that Rock and Roll was not in the Bible.. you are correct. Neither is Trinity but we have a pretty good idea dont we.....???

My message was clear in showing that the biggest obstacle to the gospel getting outside the four walls of a man made church building... is fear.. the fear of anything new, the fear of anything that reminds us of our sin before Christ. I do not have to Love Rock and Roll music, to understand what I SEE FIRST HAND.... in my life. I am going to a concert/worship service tonight. People will hear the gospel there, and they will worship, no matter what you say or believe. Tonight, people will worship. Tonight a mother and father will stand by their teenagers side, worshipping God... perhaps with ear plugs in.. all standing as one unit, worshipping the God of the heavens.. and not one person can stop the intent of their hearts.... Only the God that Loves us can stop it.

Is everyone being mislead tonight????? that is my question.

Am I saved because I stopped listening to secular music????? Because I dont.. I listen to music where people profess,, HEY, I LOVE JESUS.... and I always say.. Prove it. You're music will not prove your Love for Jesus to me, but your life is a good indication. But at least I improve my odds by keeping it Christian.. anyone can say they are.. but again,, God knows, I can only guess or speculate, observe.

Are the newsboys misleading the world.........???? how about when they lead worship?.. If they sing a Hymn will that validate them for the moment???? I'm confused.

Hey,, it just hit me. I'm done trying to explain this or justify it.. I am going to follow Jesus, to the best of my ability, occasionally falling,,, sometimes sadly on purpose.. man I hate those moments.. isnt that cool?,, I hate those moments... I cannot believe where I was, and the place Jesus has brought me by grace... God bless you guys.. jC

Solid Rock.

One last Word

RAVE ON SHORTSTOP
Oh that's three
I'm Just Old Jim

That is a very good question JC. I will attempt to comment on this question, but I can not give you a dogmatic ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answer because as you have already stated, only God is knowledgeable in this area, and Salvation is of the Lord. The Lord alone is the judge of our heart of hearts and He sees us as we really are. I can only see things dimly and partially, besides Christ gave us a specific command not to judge. So my final answer is: I don’t know.

But in light of your very good question, I would like to add a few more to the pot.

Is rock and roll music necessary for salvation or for the Lords ministry?

I don’t recall any prophets, saints, apostles, or even Christ using rock music to do the work of the Lord. So I am wondering if we just got rid of it if it would hinder God’s work.

Should we hang onto something that causes many to stumble and then was not even commanded to be used in the first place?

I know it causes me to stumble, and based on what Paul taught we should not enjoy anything that would cause a weaker brother to stumble. We are one body and when ever one stumbles we all stumble.

Now if rock music is being used by Satan as an evil influence in the churches, I say that is not good and it could be a factor in someone not coming to the Lord in true faith and repentance. The Christian rock could be a reminder of their secular music and so they would then “stumble” at that because they would not see any difference in the music.

The other fact of the matter is that we all ready know that multitudes will be shocked to find out that they will end up in a lake of fire even though they did many good works in the name of the Lord. There are people attending and leading churches all over this country that will end up in the lake of fire and will be tormented along with demons for all eternity. That is a very sad fact. This is why I would say that if there is any question or any doubt that something is keeping you from loving the Lord then for Heaven’s sake get rid of it.

I can not show you a scripture that proves Satan was the inventor of rock music. That is something that you will need to decide for yourself. If you believe that God invented it then you should be fully persuaded in your own mind to do and worship as you feel God would have you. I often find that God does not it make it that easy for us. He is a spirit, and as such He does not always spell things out in big bold letters. I am confident that if each man will set his heart to fully seek the Lord, the Lord will meet him and tell him great and mighty things and will reveal the secret things of God. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him and to them will he show His covenant.

I don’t think everyone is being misled all the time. We kind of go in and out misleadings at times.
I spent most of my Christian life serving money, thinking it was my security. During that time I listened to all kinds of music, and had moral failures on a regular basis. I was a miserable person, and still am to some degree. God delivered me from that miserable life by taking me through a series of painful fiery trials. Praise God for His disciplinary actions! He definitely knows how to drive home certain points. Ouch. The best thing for us is that He does it so we can be partakers of His Holiness, what purpose and meaning He brings to the confused and miserable of heart!

It is a good possibility that there are some people being misled, only God knows for sure. But what I do know is this: if most people are doing it and think it is right – it is probably not the right thing to do in God’s eyes. Only a few will find the narrow path that leads to life, many are on the Broadway that leads to destruction.

If the News Boys can see clearly like Jesus sees, then the chances are that they are not misleading anyone, because Jesus would never lead anyone astray. But if they be as the Pharisee were, like blind guides, then if the blind lead the blind, then they both will fall into a ditch. And I know that ditches are evil because they are created by ditch witches. That is my feeble attempt at holy humor.

May God Bless you JC as you follow Jesus.

Stever

Stever:

Rock and Roll? For sake of accuracy, your complaint is really about electronic P&W in the church (electric Jesus—sensuality). Let’s just call it P&W for short. No, it is not necessary for salvation. Only Christ is. Is P&W necessary for the Lord’s ministry? I believe that question can apply to any tool the Lord uses to reach people. Does He need TV evangelists? Does He need radio evangelists? Does God need them? No, but He sure utilizes them and I know some folks that think TV/radio is of Satan.

Stever, when you say: "I don’t recall any prophets, saints, apostles, or even Christ using rock music to do the work of the Lord", I believe this is a strawman argument. They didn’t have TV, radio, and internet in the times of Jesus either. Yet, Christian ministry today is reaching thousands, if not millions, for Christ via these media. If we got rid of “it” , God would just use another vehicle to accomplish His work because God uses anything and everything to try and bring the lost to Him (even....sinners).

Stever said: "Should we hang onto something that causes many to stumble and then was not even commanded to be used in the first place? "

Commanded? God commands us to love Him and love others. What are you talking about?

Stever said, "I know it causes me to stumble, and based on what Paul taught we should not enjoy anything that would cause a weaker brother to stumble."

Stever, you're scaring me, bro. Please tell me you aren’t equating P&W to alcoholism or tobacco addiction? If you really are a “weaker” brother, just like I won’t drink a glass of wine in front of a recovering alcoholic, or smoke a pipe in front of an “ex” smoker, I promise I won’t play my bass guitar in front of you. I wouldn't want my freedom to become a stumbling block for you. Just let me know who you are when we meet.

I don’t accept your premise that P&W is being used by Satan as an evil influence in the churches. BTW, in the big scheme of things, I believe the true stumbling block is the one mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:23, "but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".

Stever, the questions and doubts about something that is keeping you from loving the Lord are in YOUR mind, not mine. Those churchy folks who’ll end up in the Lake of Fire are those like the Pharisees who knew Scripture, but failed to recognize (or learn to know) the one to whom the Scriptures referred. In other words, they’re the superficial Christians without the indwelling Spirit (born of the Spirit).

Stever said, "I am confident that if each man will set his heart to fully seek the Lord, the Lord will meet him and tell him great and mighty things and will reveal the secret things of God. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him and to them will he show His covenant."

God has already revealed this secret to me and all my P&W brothers and sisters indwelt by His Spirit, which is “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27). They also know, as heirs, they have full access to the throne of God to be able to call Him "Abba, Father" (Daddy Father).

Stever said, "Only a few will find the narrow path that leads to life, many are on the Broadway that leads to destruction."

The path that leads to destruction is not P&W, nor is it Rock-and-roll. It is any life without Christ. You need to re-tweak your theology.
--Ziobuck opining

The ZioBuck stops here: I think this is a matter of spiritual discernment. I can try to give you principles and analogies that I think make the case against P&W, but it will all go in one ear and out the other, because as long as you are involved in it, you will have a slim chance of being able to see it objectively. This was the case with my wife. I tried to explain this to her for years but she couldn’t see it. But after I stopped talking to her and started praying for her she went on a rock music fast and then after a while she began to see how it was affecting her attitude. Now she can say with John Newton, the author of Amazing Grace, “I once was blind, but now I see”.

Stever - tweaking and fine tuning theology to the satisfaction of the Master.

Your wife fasted Christian Rock,, or secular rock... which one????

Oh wait,, they are both the same to you. excuse me.

I should have used my spiritual discernment, which of course is different from your spiritual discernment....mines more of spiritual blinders, right???

Something to ponder!..... when I first heard Christian SCREAMO,, I thought,, ooohhhh devil! you're good!!!... how did you get that in here?.

Now even though I dont like SCREAMO anything.. like Brad says, screaming should be left to times of extreme emergency...

But the teens,, like every generation have their little thing... SCREAMING.. yet another way that people with absolutely no talent can be in a band... then again, I tried to scream once and it hurt me, so maybe it is talent.

I thought to myself.. there is no way that screaming can glorify GOD...

One day I was listening to a man in front of me during worship.. Let me just say this,,, I am glad it was a sweet sound to Gods ear,, because It was killing me............ But I could see the guy was pretty serious about his praise,, and obviously wasnt concerned with what I was thinking.. which I admire.

Now, it was so horrible that it made me stop worshipping, and I was focused on the noise coming from this man.. It was basically a temporary stumbling block.. But was it because of the man??, should I have informed him of his wrong doing?, pointing out and describing what I was hearing from his mouth... ?? Should I point out the error of his vocal chords that have distracted me from worshipping my Father..??

I dont think so!. In that case I had to focus my attention on my own worship, or lack thereof considering I was busy critiquing the praise guy..
I was made a special way, with a special talent for worship all my own.. a gift from God Himself. The gift that keeps on giving If I will just be obedient and praise Him, for He is worthy.

SO.... out of curiosity, I asked one of my youth that loved Jesus who was a screamer in a band.. Christian band mind you.. and I asked him.. What are you saying when you scream?.. and what are you thinking when you scream? I was amazed at his answer. He said that it must seem very foreign to me, but that he was singing from his heart. He told me that when I sang worship he could see my passion, and I realized at that moment that when he was screaming, I was not interested in his passion, but the motive behind his actions, my own perception due to associating screams with ang