Congrats on your new ministry! We'll be praying for you!

You know, I really think a lot of Christians would be very surprised if they actually READ the whole Bible. There's murder, sex, intrigue, bad language. And God's love. Most people don't get the whole message, and that's sad.

We're looking forward to seeing you in Lake Jackson next month. We have front row seats for your early show. Can't wait!

Brad: Thanks for clearing up the confusion...and to be honest...I wouldn't believe anything the L.A. Times says about you anyways...I think that what you are doing with Godmen is great!

Brad,

The LA Slimes is bull****, regardless of whether you actually uttered the word yourself. You have every right to say what you said, and I would lose some respect for you if you were to retract anything, especially if what you said were taken out of context.

This is a war that has been raging for decades. You are merely entering the fight. Take back what you said, and you will be offering the enemy (Satan and his minions) a major victory in their attempt to remove Christianity from American discourse.

On my blog, I don't hold back profanity for this very reason. Since I use it all the time, there's never cause for alarm.

And the LA Slimes and its friends in NY, DC, and elsewhere can also kiss me where the sun doesn't shine.

RWR
www.rightwingrocker.com

Brad, when I talked with you and we spoke about Godmen, the passion you had for helping men overcome spoke to me. I never had any doubt that where your heart was. I am proud to lock shields with you as we confront the enemy. Know you have at least one warrior by your side, and I'm there are many more. Women are wonderful, but we need to bring men into the kingdom, and I feel you are doing a great job.
Now that you are in ministry the attacks are going to come fast and furious as long as you are making a difference. Satan has seen what this has already done in the lives of men and trembles at the implications. I would say expect more attacks. Have no fear, Brad. We have your back. More importantly, the King of kings has your back. If He is for us, who can be against us?

Don't sweat the attacks of the enemy. The fear should start if the attacks stop.

Yeah, you really have to watch out for those wolves like the L.A. Times. They're one of the most far-left newspapers in the country. It doesn't surprise me one bit that they twisted your words.

Brad: See…, you have all kinds of support from sisters and brothers across the fruited plain. Don't get discouraged, Bradster. If you aren't being attacked, you're probably luke warm in your faith and are not bearing any fruit for the kingdom. I heartily agree with RWR and Shane. I share your frustration (from previous posts) about some brothers/sisters who are quick to judge, especially after reading a liberal rag like the LAT.

One thing you said really stands out. You said you never wanted to be in ministry! That rings so true with me and probably most of the body of Christ. But, the fact is, through our spoken words and (mostly) our actions, we ARE ministers. When we go to church, we shouldn't just be "ministered" to...but rather, be equipped to go out and minister to others, thus fulfilling the great commission. It seems a good portion of Christians think their pastors, ministers, priests, etc., are the only ones who should do this.

The Godmen approach to ministry recognizes there is a big stumbling block for those men on the periphery who may be searching for something that is REAL. Perhaps these men feel they have to change for God to accept them? Or, they think God can't accept them for who they (think they) are and for what they've done? Of course, both these thoughts are wrong. I believe God wants an individual relationship with each one of us. He accepts us "where we are" (but won't leave us there). The problem is that as individuals we mature in the Lord at different rates and can be subjected to intense criticisms from those outsiders and insiders as we walk our individual paths towards becoming Christ-like.

The secular doesn’t understand us. Because our faith is spiritually discerned, those who are not spiritual, will think our faith is nonsense. The bible tells us this. Recall in the book of Romans, the apostle Paul talks about the flesh which wars with the spirit? He says, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.” (Rom 7:15-16) Can’t you just hear the LAT calling the author of a huge part of the NT a “HYPOCRITE!” I can understand the “lost” pointing that judgmental finger at those of faith who may not be as Christ-like as they should, but they’re doing it to elevate themselves and whatever their belief systems are. What I don’t understand is brothers/sisters of faith who do the same thing and who should know that none of us are righteous in our own flesh. We fail daily (and some, like me, every few nano-seconds), but we have Christ to catch us and renew us in his truth and grace.

May you find His peace in your ministry, Brad. –Ziobuck pontificating again

Ministry is a great place to be but if you ask me I'd say you've been in ministry ever since your career took off. Sure you may not "minister" in the traditional preaching kinda way but what you've done and what you do it's still ministry. Ministry has it's good times and it's bad, it all depends on which half of the glass you're lookin' at half full or half empty.

1 Peter 2:11-20

11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

12Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Honor Authority
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the )praise of those who do right.

15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

17Honor all people,love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

19For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

20For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

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Yeah, I know, you have a Bible, and you could have found that yourself...... I just thought it was appropriate for this ministry that you have accepted....

There will always be trials... how will we handle them?,, will we lean on Gods words, or our own understanding?

A ministry that is smack dab in the middle of media,, will always bring with it unreliable reporting.. On one hand we invite the media,,, but when it holds up to its reputation, we can only rely on Gods word.

I will be praying that the damage done to your family as a result of your stepping out in Faith,,, will be short lived, and that you, your family, and those who assist you and stand by your side, will continue to do a good work, for the only ONE worth working for... peace on you my friend, peace on you. jC

Apparently Brad your lacking when it comes to hermenutics, biblical defintions and use of context. Of course this is to be expected as "godmen" does not allow clergy (only the laity can lead this bottom's up revolution - again Brad... words have meaning).

If Brad had taken a few minutes to actually research his claim about Paul, he would have found something quite different (IOW Brad is wrong about the word "dung" and its supposed meaning of excrement/feces and his claim that "bullsh|t" is acceptable when used in context (after all Brad is just doing what Paul did right? wrong).


Here is the verse Brad is talking about...

Philippians 3:8
(KJV) "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but <b>dung</b>, that I may win Christ..."

Now if look at the Strong's definition of the word "dung" you will find that it means...

G4657
σκύβαλον skubalon skoo'-bal-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1519 and G2965 and G906; what is thrown to the dogs, that is, refuse, rubbish.

This seems to indicate that it is not indeed feces, but scaps that are good for nothing except to be thrown to the dogs (on a rubbish, refuse, &/or garbage heap). Matter of fact if you check other translations you will see that the word "dung" used here is NOT translated as "excrement" or "feces" but more accurately as (check these out)...

ESV = rubbish
YLT = refuse
NIV = rubbish
NASB = rubbish
AMP = rubbish (refuse, dregs)
ASV = refuse
NLT = garbage
NKJV = rubbish

You get the point ;)

The accurate word translations DO NOT use the word dung as feces/excrement. Remember in hebrew &/or greek there are different words that are translated as just one word in english (english is so limited), so its important to find the real meaning of the word (in context). So the question is, is there a word that actually means "excrement/feces" found in scripture?


Yep... lets take a look at...

Exodus 29:14
(KJV) "But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his <b>dung</b>, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering."

The word "dung" here is defined by Strong's as...

H6569
פּרשׁ peresh peh'-resh
From H6567; excrement

So we can plainly see that Brad's claim of Paul using "dung" is not the same as him using the word "bullsh|t!" no matter the context (especially when you use the correct definition).

Again Brad, words have meaning.

What I think is a huge red flag is that Brad will not use that word in his comedy routines, but he does use it at "godmen" events despite the fact the bible commands us to be holy (set apart) from the world, that we are to be strangers in a strange land. Matter of fact the bible says...

Ephesians 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

The bible commentator Matthew Henry, (along with other widely accepted bible scholars), says the following about "corrupt communication/unwholesome talk" (which includes the term "bullsh|t")...

-----------------------
We are here warned against corrupt communication; and directed to that which is useful and edifying, Eph_4:29. Filthy and unclean words and discourse are poisonous and infectious, as putrid rotten meat: they proceed from and prove a great deal of corruption in the heart of the speaker, and tend to corrupt the minds and manners of others who hear them; and therefore Christians should beware of all such discourse. It may be taken in general for all that which provokes the lusts and passions of others. We must not only put off corrupt communications, but put on that which is good to the use of edifying. The great use of speech is to edify those with whom we converse. Christians should endeavour to promote a useful conversation: that it may minister grace unto the hearers; that it may be good for, and acceptable to, the hearers, in the way of information, counsel, pertinent reproof, or the like. Observe, It is the great duty of Christians to take care that they offend not with their lips, and that they improve discourse and converse, as much as may be, for the good of others.

Ref. Matthew Henry Bible Commentary
---------------------

Brad's statement shows his lack of biblical knowledge, or at least his lack of research (especially word definition), and shows how he does not rightly divide the word of God (hopefully this is out of ignorance and not for some other reason).

Brad, perhaps if you used your bible as your standard to find out what is ACTUALLY true, instead of telling people what you THINK is true, you would see the difference.

My prayers go out to you and all the men (and women) out there.

TC&GB,

Xtian



p.s. my reply is not to imply that I am perfect or that I have attained some great level of godliness, but rather to just reproach and encourage believers to esteem the bible over the words of a man who pulls verses out of context to support his "unwholesome" speach.

Hopefully Brad you will read this and do some serious digging into your bible before you start spouting what you think is "gospel" truth. Peace!

One thing I have always encouraged on my boards is discourse. Over the years I have had numerous Christians that I respect relay to me the meaning of dung in Phillipians 3:8 as the word we use as sh*t. This has never bothered me in the least as I would perfectly agree that anything desired over Christ and His sacrifice would amount to that. Consequently , when I used the word as an "impact" word at an adults only mens event, it was to describe the meaninglessness of any pursuit that takes precedence over Christ. It was not used frivolously as a scatalogical term.

Let me relay a story. I had a 25 year old guy meet with me a couple weeks after the event to tell me that he grew up in the church as his dad was the pastor. He was a local football hero and had a friend on a professional arena team that got the tickets for them. His friend bailed out and he took his pastor dad instead. This kid was married and told me he was a sexual addict and getting a divorce. His dad had been praying for years for his son to no avail. When he went to the conference and I referenced the fact that anything you desire in life over Jesus was bull**** he said he stopped in his tracks and thought to himself, this isn't some typical church service , these guys are serious. Long story short within 2 weeks he was in counseling for his addiction AND WAS RECONCILING HIS MARRIAGE!

That one "salty" word was the slap in the face that changed his life. His pastor dad also met with us and said he witnessed a miracle in his sons life and will endorse Godmen in whatever capacity we needed. Out of the hundreds that were there that day, (and they were all asked their opinion as to the effectiveness of the event) we found 1 guy that was uncomfortable, and everyone else stimulated by honest open discussion.

I live my life by this principle. I don't care what I believe, I care what is true. Because of the mixed interpretation of the word I used I am researching with some professors to get the truth behind the definition. If I am wrong I will apologize for my ignorance, if right I will explain my position. Either way I have decided to do so on my next DVD in 2 weeks in Texas. That being said I also have a word for Xtian. You are welcome on my boards to discuss ideas , disagree or provoke debate. You seem to be serious about your studies.

What is not welcome is your smart aleck, judgemental, arrogant ,self righteous, approach. You come on my boards as a fellow Christian, it will be with respect and wholesome debate. You come on as a legalist and you are gone. I despise legalists..then again ..so did Jesus. Again, inquiry and healthy dialogue is welcome, your lecture is not.

By the way, Godmen is rethinking its no pastor stance as we were afraid that pastors would not be able to speak freely w/o concern for misinterpretation. We decided that if your willing to be real, cmon! We have found some we think would be great.We are a work in progress and are evolving , but we are convinced this is God breathed and are doing our best to honor that. We are taking a risk because we believe that something to energize men towards a Christian spiritual journey is essential.This country, heck this world needs Christian unity. You don't have to agree with everything I do but pray for me as I will for you.

We are all in the same family. Let's learn to guard each others back, not stab it.If we disagree , lets search for truth as brothers seeking reconciliation and growth, NOT condemnation. We are all on journey and we cannot survive w/o each other. The L.A.Times article was proof to me of the bias and anti-Christian bigotry that some media sources use to demean and try to destroy us. I know considering the manufactured sentence and concepts they accused me of. This battle is real and we must join forces to defend our faith. Death to legalism and life in Christ. your flawed and ever failing brother in arms. brad stine

It should never be a Christian’s response to judge one another; in fact we are told that’s not our job! “Godmen ,” in my estimate is an attempt to try a new avenue of support and ministry to men and if given a chance can be a vessel of help to many.
In this day when so many are slinging arrows at the Christian community. We don’t need any self inflected wounds.
This conversation about Paul comparing his life before Christ, to his life after finding Christ, or more correctly being drafted by Christ on the Damascus road and what word he used has relevance only, in the fact that his life with Christ was wonderful !!! Many times in his life, Paul thought that for his love of Christ he would surely loose his life. And as we know he was put to death much in the same manner as Christ. What Paul sought was to plead and preach the resurrection of Christ to the masses. What are we doing? If we love Christ and accept his God Hood then we are in our various ways doing the same. We need to keep in mind a statement made by my father many times, “Until Salvation is assured everything else in the Bible shrinks to insignificance.” The last commandment of Christ is that we love one another as he loved us. Why don’t we try that? Don’t judge others or you will be judged!
In this the generation of the fig tree, it would be best if we start thinking about those that are not saved and those that are having faith testing problems and start helping them. This generation shall not pass before Christ and Anti-Christ shall come and we as warriors of the living God must be ready and in union.
There’s only one shade of white on the robe that has been washed in the blood.
It is God’s Grace that we preach if we are to preach at all. While we were yet in sin
Christ died for us.
Put away your spears and arrows and through a little love in the direction of your brothers.

That last word should be throw not through!!
It's late
And I'm Just Old Jim
( with the emphasis on OLD )

amen my brother, amen. just old brad

----------------------
Just old Jim said... "It should never be a Christian’s response to judge one another; in fact we are told that’s not our job! "
-----------------------

I think your confusing the judgment of one's salvation (which only Christ can & should do) and the call to judge others in accordance with His word, to encourage believers to stay within the faith (which the NT records many times as written by His disciples - they judged in regards to all kinds of believers (words and actions) to include gossip, slander, sexual sin, false doctrine, etc) . I could post numerous scriptures to support this but let me just ask a simple question...

If all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that we may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16), How then can you do these things without judging?

Quite simply, you can not.


----------------
Just Jim also said... "Don’t judge others or you will be judged!"
----------------

Sorry Jim but your wrong. The scripture actually states...

Matthew 7:1-5
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Notice the subject is not to judge anyone at anytime, but rather to judge fairly and to remember that if we judge someone for stealing while we are still stealing, then we will be judged for stealing as well (and called hypocrite to boot).

What is important is verse 5, that once we confess and repent, that we should continue to help a fellow believer remove the problems that he is facing with right judgment and proper application of God's word (pointing him from his worldly flesh to Christ Himself). Of course we do so out of love so that at the final judgment, we will hear the words "Well done my good and faithful servant... enter Heaven". Those that do not walk in obedience, shun judgment and tell others to not judge other believers (out of love) might hear something else... Like "depart from me.. I never knew you". Jesus said this to those who will have healed, prophesied and drove out demons in His name. In light of this, it is sooo important to judge, correct and reproof with His word and in love.

Its too easy but most people just pick out one verse and dont read the entire message (in context) and see what it really says.

Jim I do agree that we are to love God and those around us, and that is where obedience comes in (witnessing, taking care of orphans, widows, giving as we see the need, etc all because we were bought at a price that none of us deserve). Remember also that along with love, we are commanded to obey Christ (if you love me you will obey my commands). One command of Christ never negates any of His other commands. That has never been found in scripture.

Again let me be really clear. My comments are not arrows or spears but in clear context of using God's word to admonish, correct and reproof things that fall outside the His standards which we are to follow. As I have state before, I expect the same treatment if I stray from His words and examples found in scripture.

TC&GB,

Xtian



p.s I also agree that there should be more endeavors to support, encourage, correct, reproof and bring men (and women) back into a deeper relationship with Christ, the problem is that does require judgment, humility and gentleness.

Brad good to hear from you.

I saw you perform in Pueblo, CO and I love the fact that your comedy routine is done without any cursing or swearing, I really appreciate that. I also want to say thanks for the opportunity to voice my concerns. With that said, on with the discussion…

Regarding Phil 3:8, I respect lots of Christians and I too have taken what they said as true, but when I dug into the word, I found that some of what they said was did not jive with God’s word. So even tho I still respect these Christians, some are pastors and professors, I have to take the side of what the bible clearly says, not just from one verse (anyone can pull one verse out of context) but from the whole counsel of God.

Now I understand about “impact” words, I spent 20+ years in the military (there are lots of those floating around and I think they are considered coarse and unwholesome language). The point being, you don’t have to use these words. Why? Because it is what the world does. Your stance that “I can use this “impact” word because Paul did it”, does not hold water in the light of what Paul really said (by definition & context) nor does it follow what is found throughout scripture. Matter of fact I have yet to find one case of a Godly man who used a swear word/unwholesome speech to make a point or emphasize what was being said.

I also appreciate your experience and I too can produce many from my witnessing and open air preaching encounters, but without the use of any swear/coarse words. So where does this leave us?

Well after answering the call to repentance, christians are called grow, mature, “be holy” as God is holy and to do what He commands. It’s not out of legalism (that never did anything for anyone), rather its out of our love for the One who saved us. If we think that we lowly humans that are saved by grace, can actually do anything to assist God in His work, we are sorely mislead. To imply that if you don’t use a swear word, then this guy wouldn’t be reconciling his marriage is denying the power of God’s word – that somehow it wouldn’t do what it was supposed to do, unless you added an “impact” word as you call it. Nowhere is this found in scripture. His word never returns void, so what is the use of my adding an “impact” word? Isn’t God’s word enough? Remember that Paul said to imitate him, as he imitates Christ, so why not take that heart, especially in the arena of our speech? Remember we are talking about the whole counsel of God and not just haggling over the meaning of one verse (during a stint I had during military interogation training, I had an instructor who could prove communism was authored by God by pulling verses out of context). We gotta stick with the "whole" truth.

I think it’s cool that you are going after truth. The “true-est” book I have found is the bible and it’s words are going to last for eternity. I think its worth following, rather than what I or anyone else thinks is true, make sense? As for your researching with some professors, just be careful that what they say, is what scripture says (I have run into pastors and so called “learned men” who can’t accept what scripture plainly says). Case in point, an older pastor with multiple bible degrees (seminary included), who could read, write and speak Hebrew and Greek stated that sex before marriage is not a sin today. That it was just a cultural norm for those who lived 2,000+ years ago. That it’s not applicable to Christians today because sex before marriage is now the acceptable norm in our society. That is just wrong on so many levels (but he backed it up with lots of theological mumbo jumbo). This shows how far from the truth a “Christian” can go when they rely on their own understanding. My point is that swearing was never used as a means of emphasis or impact with Godly men in the bible… ever, so why should we think it’s appropriate today? I think that it should be especially important to “Godmen”, as we are called to be godly, don’t you think? BTW I think that people will appreciate your digging into scripture and explain what it says thru your blog, DVD, future events, etc.

I again appreciate welcoming me. I can assure you that my comments are not because I am a smart aleck, arrogant jerk with a legalistic outlook on life with no real evidence of Christ in my life (IOW no fruit in bearing with repentance). I also despise legalism because following “rules” that doesn’t stem from the love we have for our Savior is indeed worthless and damning (just look at Jesus and how He dealt with the Pharisees). The freedom that Christ brings is where I no longer swear or do what the world does. Not because of legalism and my own efforts, but because I no longer have the need or desire to do so (it just melts away – and what is left are His words that I have hid in my heart). My comments are simply to address a few things that don’t match up with scripture. What you do with it, is up to you. I expect the same correction, reproof and instruction from those who are believers, but unfortunately most will not be man enough and do what needs to be done. Remember iron sharpens iron, and its all for the purpose of doing His will in this world.

In regards to your rethinking in allowing pastors to “do” godmen, I encourage that. I do not see a problem with keeping it real. In my time with the Army (20+ years with 12 years overseas in ground infantry, armor, artillery, cavalry, etc) I have run across a lot of chaplains who had a deep relationship with Christ and who were very “real” and "hardcore", who also ministered without swearing - IOW they let God’s word be the power and impact for soldiers on wartime battlefields (with amazing results). Anyone can swear and resort to coarse language. I remember one chaplain who I had the pleasure of serving with, went thru 2 wars and multiple combat campaigns (non-declared wars), say that “Swearing, cursing and unwholesome language is what ignorant people say when they don’t know what to say next”. In today’s world it is so important that we are set apart (holy) from what the world does; otherwise we are just using the grace of God to sin just as the world does (in essence denying Jesus’ sacrifice and failing in His call for us as seen in Hebrew 7 and 1 Peter 2). My hope is for everyone to take what is said and done and measure it against God’s standard, in order to fight the good fight, run the race, etc.

In closing Brad (and others), let me assure you that my long winded comments do not stem from legalism, nor am I backstabbing anyone (I would rather be long winded and fully understood than be brief and misunderstood). My comments are just observations I see when I compare thoughts, ideas and actions against God’s word. For those that think I am being overly critical, let me say that it was because a few godly men who took a strong stand for His word, pointed out things in life that didn’t measure up. It was then that I was able to repent and have a deeper relationship with Christ - BTW its a continual thing (this is not just one personal experience but one that is mirrored numerous times throughout the bible as well).

BTW thanks for the prayers, I will be praying for you and yours too.

TC&GB (take care & God bless),

Xtian
AKA Pueblo Steve



p.s. I really wish we could talk in person so we could really understand each others tone, attitude and heart. It’s so hard to see these things in writing sometimes, so please don’t take my comments as being mean spirited. BTW if your have a godmen event in my neck of the woods you can be assured I will do what it takes to attend.

Peace

p.p.s. Since this discussion is about the words we use, I have added some more scriptures so we can get the “whole” counsel of God’s word on this subject, rather arguing a point using just one scripture. Remember that there is a difference between swearing, coarse language, and speaking boldly with wise, true and rational words like Jesus, Paul and other disciples did. If what you say and claim is true, that we can use “impact” words, then it will be evident in scripture…

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. "
(Matt 15:18-20)

The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
(Luke 6:45-46)

But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
(Eph 4:20-29)

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
(Col 3:5-8)

Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
(Col 4:5-6)

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
(1Pe 2:1)

Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
(Tit 2:6-8)

whoever speaks, speak as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies--in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1Pe 4:11)

*NOTE: all these scriptures were addressed and directed to believers, and not those outside the faith.

One last thot... no really I mean it... for those that might think I am not a "manly" man, but rather some, skinny, pasty, little, bible thumping geek, let me give some insight... I'm 6'3" and 205lbs. I have shot and blown up stuff in a number of different coutries around the world, I've spent a few days in jail during my time. I have riden a handful of harleys -stateside and overseas, I have a full sleeve tatt (and then some). I have been in a helicopter crash courtesy of Uncle Sam, have multiple scars and injuries to show for it. I have also buried a few commrades who gave their all to our country. With all this, I have found that all my manliness and endeavors are nothing compared to what Christ did on the cross for me. With His ultimate act, I can only humble myself, follow His standard, and do the work He has called me to do; and encourage others to do the same.

You would probably truly appreciate what we are trying to do at Godmen. Briefly let me say for the final record.

1) I didn't curse OR use a profanity. Cursing is exactly that...CURSING. I.E. if you "damn" someone or ask God too..That is putting a "curse" on them.

2) Profanity is "irreverence or contempt for God or sacred things". Godmen is everything BUT that. The word I used was by definition is a scatalogical term which refers to excrement. Personally I don't find the word more offensive than poop, dung, caca, crap, or any other synonymn. I believe it is the perfect word to describe worldly things.

I don't plan on using the word again at the event if only because the misperception it created may keep men away that would benefit from the experience; All things lawful, not all expedient.

Lastly I appreciate your passion but I disagree with your take . What you perceive the Bible is saying does not apply here because of the context in my opinion. It was one word defined from a statement Paul made that I felt men would consider powerful and impactful. It was.

Jesus insulted people by calling them "generation of vipers" ( sons of snakes which is no different than sons of dogs if you get my drift) he said they were "fit for hell" which is a curse. Jesus took a whip to people and knocked their tables over. In the U.S. if you or I did that we could be arrested for assault and battery. Sounds like a sin huh? So our dilema is either Jesus sinned meaning he is not God OR sin isn't always what we think it is.

I see much more nuances to our faith than you do. Maybe we should remember the old axiom "In the essentials-unity In the non-essentials-LIBERTY, In all things love. I can tell we are not going to agree on some issues but I'm glad your in our tribe and we could use you at Godmen. brad

Brad,

I agree that men need to be challenged and supported when it comes to having a relationship with God (we ARE different from women), matter of fact I am looking forward to attending an event if it comes close by.

But as you stated why take a chance of giving others around us the opportunity to condemn us merely from our poor choice of words? This is also in agreement in that we need to consider the weaker brethren and refrain from coarse language for the fact it could lead a person to stumble in the faith (including men, women and children). I agree that it is indeed not expedient based on what is found in scripture - good call. What I see is that God's word when properly applied works in every situation regardless of race, color, gender or age (especially in a general sense as seen with regards to our speech). IOW I cannot tell my family and teach young people or witness that they can only use certain words after they reach a certain age or that they are appropriate because of the power to impact and emphasize as seen in just one lone scripture verse - why? because its just not seen throughout scripture anywhere. The easier and simplier solution is to keep it real and relevant regardless of age or gender, and side with the application for everyone, but that is just how I see scripture.

As for your statement...
----------------
"What you perceive the Bible is saying does not apply here because of the context in my opinion."
----------------

Well again look at the whole of scripture - matter of fact if you look closely using your idea of its context with only Phil 3:8, it shows that the bible contradicts itself and hence in error (the bible contradicts itself in regards to christians and their speech). If it is in error then the whole account of Jesus, His deity, sinnless life and our redemption can come into question - believe me, I have run into this argument many times when witnessing to the lost (they look for anything that will not make them accountable to God and His word). The best way to deal with it is not to hold fast to the lone idea that sticks out like a sore thumb and causes more problems, but to follow the rule of Hermunetics: "Context, Context, Context" and "If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense." The main thrust of hermunetics is not the individualistic approach and interpretation that is applied to just one verse (that seems to be so prevelant in the modern church today), but the approach of verse as it fits within the whole of scripture. This minimizes the contradictions (down to zero) and silences the questions of those who look for errors in our faith. It took me a long time to realize this, so I thot I would pass this along and reduce someone's learning curve - I would have really appreciated that, if some godly man would have presented this earlier on in my life - as it is, it seems that godly workers are few indeed (in witnessing and in discipleship with the whole counsel of God). :)

Now what matters is not my opinion or yours Brad, but what the bible calls us to do in regards to obedience (unwholesome talk, coarse language, and other similar statements with their separate definitions) cannot be disregarded because you choose to use one set of definitions for curse and profane (which BTW are correct definitions - kudos) and apply them to all texts about our speech and behavior. The problem arises when one discounts the other scriptures that I posted prior (& those are just the ones in the NT it was not an exhaustive list). And while its very true that these words can be a powerful and impacting, it does not and should not negate other places in scripture that tell us unwholesome, coarse, obsense, etc language is not appropriate. I agree that each of us has to choose and work out what we believe and we will have to give an account for those choices (according to scripture there are sins that are not damning as you pointed out). For me personally I would rather side with caution, than teach and preach things that could lead to a harsh penalty - Luke 17:2 (especially when there are so many learned and godly scholars throughout history that have affirmed this point as well). They are much smarter than you and I, and their works have withstood the test of time. I guess we will see what happens in the end - its no reason for me start calling names as others have done, I just wanted to fully explain my point of view. I also hope that no one takes what I say as the "gospel truth" but also holds my words up to the God's standard and see where it lays.

Now in referencing Jesus and His actions, you are putting me, you and all mankind in the same boat as the all knowing God (cant do that its not fair). Jesus knew 100% that what He was saying and doing was appropriate, but we, in the light of the NT scriptures I posted, and with our serverly limited knowledge, cannot say the same thing. So the comparison is flawed and questionable. So I choose to back out one this one if you dont mind.

For your statement that...
--------------
"either Jesus sinned meaning he is not God or sin isnt always what we think"
--------------

Is overstating and demanding an error'd response from the get go. Its like asking "When did you stop beating your wife? Any answer given is wrong, because the question is flawed to begin with (and the fact that the bible is extremely clear about sin). What we do know for a fact is that anything said, done or thought without faith is sin and that the OT and NT speaks volumes about sin, the law, grace, judgment, etc. Our call is to be slaves of righteousness. Again in light of the flawed question, and the immense ground which the response can lead to, I again bow out from replying further.

As you said Brad, we disagree on some things (obviously) but I appreciate the opportunity to share and discuss in the area of non-essentials. The whole purpose is to encourage further prayer, study, research and application of God's word in our lives.

BTW thanks bro, I'm glad we are on the same team too (HIS).

TC&GB,

Xtian



p.s. I would like to chat more, but I have to go to away for work for a few days, but at least this will give us something to reflect on. Peace.

If I am wrong in what I think, the Bible says then I am open to correction if done in the right spirit. And that is a sprit of love.
I paraphrased Matthew 7 verse 1 “Do not Judge so that you will not be judged”.
If we read this in the Greek the word Judge (krino) means to avenge, condemn, decree conclude. The word is # 2919 in Strong’s concordance.
You may be confused; substituting discernment in the place of condemnation. That’s one of the dots or tittles that we must not change. When you see a man sin remember Christ died for the remission of that sin. If that individual repents then forgiveness is between him and God. We as flesh do not know how to fully forgive others completely. So Christ took it out of our hands. It’s his job and he does it well!
We must judge our own life and circumstances in accordance with the Word. Make , our life a living example of one who has died to sin and loves the Lord.
Christian discernment is our ability, under guidance of the Holy Spirit and conviction of the Word to know right from wrong. A bite of the fruit of the tree of knowledge!
Now the scripture that you have quoted is a great one “Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking.
(1Pe 2:1)
Maybe we all should try that and the right place to start is laying aside all malice.
Your words ring of one who wants to profess his knowledge of the scriptures and they do. But it is wise to remember that Knowledge without Wisdom is like a cannon without a site; you have no idea where the ball will land. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Our job is to preach, plead learn and teach the Blood of Christ! Not Debate scriptures for there are always greater and lesser men in any debate!
Trying to remove the saw dust from a brother’s eye, before we remove the log from own eye is contrary to the scripture, so let’s not go there. If we whisper into the ear of that erring brother, our words are heard more so than if we shout them to heavens.
If one is trying to lead a man to Christ it would be well if he tells the man “This is what Christ has done for me in my life” how can I argue with you about your own life. Study the Word chapter and verse and if we are to distribute it then, we must rightly divide the Word; So that the intentions of the Word, are not changed in any manner. God does not give us license to sin when he gives us grace, God forbid. Jesus gives us a pathway to forgiveness..

“Conduct your self wisely toward outsiders making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.” Seasoned with salt in this case means to make your words palatable and understandable to the one you are speaking to. In this vane, maybe the manner in which your words were pinned created the illusion of barbs and arrows.
Concerning my statement of Love; John 15:12, Jesus said, “This is My commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you.
It’s God’s love that leads us to grace!
My I say one additional thing I have never seen in print nor heard Brad Stine use profane language and I believe it would be out of character for him to do so.
May I say this in conclusion, we are never always right nor are we always wrong in the way we see things; but we are eternally in Christ’s hands. I firmly believe that you are in there with us. I believe our stands as Christians and our knowledge of the Word will soon be tested greatly. Iron sharpen iron, we must continue to sharpen each other.
Xtian glad to have you with us.
Just old Jim

usually I'm pretty long winded but this ones giving me a headache... for me its pretty cut and dry. You've Got a couple guys that all agree on Christ... we all agree we're stumbling bumbling Christians, we all agree that there's speed stick strong enough for a man, but made for a woman..... I dont know what that means but I'm goin somewhere with this..

Brad like most of us loves it when people realize they were created, and they begin a new life in Christ.. I mean, who doesnt love that?.. went to a place a lot of BIBLE folk would never dare to tread,, because most of the men are busy treadin in a locked bedroom behind a computer screen at 11:00 at night.... sad, but true...

Brad, realizes,, hey, this sure turned to excrement... better not do this again... it hit one guy between the eyes and woke him up..... God can take anything and use it towards good... even if over time we realize, we dont need to use it anymore..

What made me feel uncomfortable, was a light switch for someone else.. Since I really dont know much, I also have to go by what Gods word says.... I think what it comes down to is pretty simple.. You all have valid points, and a lot of scripture can verify everything that everyone has said... But I think that even things like this can become a distraction from the real problem.. and the problem is this.. lets get this behind us real quick, and start putting our heads together to further the kingdom.. everyone learned from this, it was discussed, and hashed out, and Gods word as usual is the deciding factor....but its time to UNITE now..

This appears to be a fairly common idea among Christians at this time.. I am also attempting at this moment to bring together Christian men from all over the county to join together,,, and pray together. The main focus being our commonality in Christ..... I have found some opposition, and it does not shock me.. but mostly I am finding men that feel trapped inside four walls of a church.. and they need to come together and look at each other for a while,,and realize, we are THE BODY....

So one guy reproached,, Gods word prevails always when taken in context.
Just ol Jim as usual lifted my spirits...
And Brad has entered the ministry with a bang........

So whats new????????

Lets get these guys thinkin about their Lord and Savior.. learn from mistakes and move forward.

There is very little time to make an impact in this world... every day is crucial..

Please dont think I am skirting around the issues or that in any way I dont think there is importance in discussing and reasoning together.. I'm just saying, lets let Brad move on with this.. there really doesnt need to be anything hindering the progress... The guys at GODMEN are already learning from mistakes,, and I cant wait for the next one...

It will be very tempting to keep this thing circulating... however, an exchange of ideas to improve GODMEN and bring our brothers back home would appear to be more beneficial...

Whatever everyone decides to do,,, thats just my heart right now, and forgive me if I am standing in the way of healthy discussion.. You guys have a great week, and keep focused on the KING OF KINGS.. May God truly bless you as you seek his face..


PS: I was discouraged to hear that an event was cancelled due to CONTROVERSY..... wow,,, lets get this thing out of the way.....

I wasnt even trying to be long winded and look what happened!!!!!

2 Chronicles 7:14

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

jC

Thank you, Shortstop!
Spirits should be easy to lift; they don’t weigh much.

A final thought: As I see it.
The main under lying sentiment of the Christians that frequent this site is the unity among Christian men, in the furtherance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a deep desire in Christian men to affect some positive change in our lives, community and country. Godmen stands here at the right time and the right place in history to be one of God’s vessels for change.
When the life of a man is changed, for the good, the cascade effect is tremendous. The life of his wife, children and extended family are affected in a positive way. His work place associates see a difference in that man. Only God knows how we affect and influence those around us.
Through Godmen we have the opportunity to be a real part of a real change.
Don’t you wish you had bought Yahoo stock when it was first offered?
Wow what a return on investment. We are at the beginning, of this soon to be great work, the return on this investment will be treasures in heaven.
What other avenue in there for most of us to be a front liner in such a work.
It is my thoughts that we should put on the armor of our faith and help!
There is a great shout in heaven over the salvation of one soul.
I know a man who is dying with a most terrible illness, yet he ask God for any opportunity to tell others about the saving Grace of Jesus.
The four least used words by Christians should be the most used:
“Here am I Lord”
In the name of the one who loves us, I'm
Just Old Jim

Jim ya just preached me happy...... I'm going to bed on a positive note.. and Jesus is still on the throne.
Jim and any of you prayin types out there, could you throw one up for shortstop that my message would be from God this weekend, and that men would come together and stand in the gap for our churches, our brothers and sisters, and children whose fathers could be changed in an instant....
Goodnight guys, and if it doesnt offend you,, have a blessed week, if it does offend you, have a great week, and if your not sure if you're offended or not, have a decisive week.....jC

i do totally agree with you and i thank you for the article.i never wanted to admit that i was a crack addict but spoke out and now i am free.
.....................................................................
carol smith
http://www.christian-drug-rehab.org

So, I was with some 16 church folk this weekend, building a brick home for the poor in Agua Prieta, Mexico (South of Douglas, AZ).

I just received a wheel barrow load of cement and was backing up, stumbled on a rut in the road, fell hard on my arm, and dumped the wheel barrow of cement. As I was falling I said the first expletive (Sh*t!) that has been ingrained in my subconcious for 50 years (and seared by many rugby songs in my youth), despite the fact that I've been a born-again Christian for 14 years or so. No one said anything, though at least two folks were within ear shot.

I felt strange, somehow "unholy" about having said the "S" word, since I try not to to be profane and to be a model for Christ. I wish I could train my mind to say something like "Sugar", or, "Dag nabbit", or "Carn sarnit!" But, alas, I said the dreaded "S" word instead. It goes to show how powerful memories can be. But then I remembered the battle Paul had with the flesh and Spirit and how he did what he did not want to do. And then I thought, "I'm forgiven" by His blood. And then, ...I...hit the "system reset button", got off my behind, cleaned up the cement, and continued to build the house for the poor. He gave me His life to live with HIM and through Him. How sweet it is! Ziobuck always humbled by the power of His grace

BTW since the speech/behavior thing is done, I wanted to add a video I compiled. Its on my youtube page...

Its called the Christian Matrix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbc7QhHH0Q

Enjoy!

Xtian

Beautiful Piece and deep. Rave on my friend!
Just old Jim

Thanks Jim, I hope it spurs people on to a deeper walk with Him.

Peace,

Xtian

Here is another gentleman who says things that rile people up, he upsets the status quo in christianity - He riles up the modern church and shoots straight to the heart of the matter... and its tough. If your faint of heart, I suggest you listen to these sitting down.

Anyway this guy is named Paul Washer. His preaching is eye opening to say the least. These sermons are... biblical, deep and convicting.

Enjoy... if you dare!

1. Shocking Youth Message Stuns Hearers - So Shocking & Biblical the Preacher Was Never Invited Back

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52906154239


2. A Sermon That Has Angered Many - Examine Yourself

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=5220621750


3. Regeneration & Self-Denial (You Can't Understand the Later Unless You Understand the Former)

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=63006232159


TC&GB,

Xtian

Xtian,,,, I love that guy.. I have been falling asleep to all of those messages. Not because it makes me go to sleep, but because I love to listen to messages as I fall asleep.. its very comforting to hear Gods words before entering dream world......

I can see why it was offending people,,,,, the truth hurts... But it will also set you free. What courage it takes to speak that message in a world that has sugar coated the gospel.. jC

Yea Paul preaches the word with passion - too bad most people dont take was scripture says at face value. Anyway I really like Paul and people who shoot straight.

BTW here is another video for ya...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTCaOqE3v9A

Brad, I have heard you speak the last few years at Promise Keepers and totally enjoyed your message and humor. God has given you a gift to reach men and I agree that Satan used the LA Times story to try to stop you. Please keep going forward with this unique gift God has given you and many men will be reached that are not being reached by the church that has become to feminine. Thanks for being you and may God receive all the glory.