Brad:
As usual, you made me laugh and gave me some things to think about. And your observations about the Mexican President and their "land of opportunity" was spot on. Thanks.

It is hard to believe that people who are NOT U.S. citizens would have the hutzpah to demonstrate IN THE USA about their illegal status. Two things come to mind:

1) If our country is so bad as liberals have a propensity to opine, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, then why are we having an immigration problem? Who would come to a country that was an anathema to liberal elites? (I'm sorry.... they are patriots, right? They just don't see the harm in bashing our country (both here and abroad), our president, our soldiers, our recruiters on government funded colleges, and even our fallen in times of war. Silly me.)


2) If "undocumented immigrants" are so unhappy with their status of being ILLEGAL, then why don't they just...LEAVE? I'm sure they can take their illegal documents into a friendlier country (Like FRANCE) and use them to swindle illegal perquisites from THEIR social health care system. Also, they wouldn't have to demonstrate their rude and intense dislike for U.S. citizens in the streets of France. They could just get a job as a restaurant waiter, or hotel clerk. (Win-win!)

Speaking of leaving, why don't those elite, politically active entertainers/actors (no...not you, Brad) who keep threatening to leave... (because President Bush breathes the same air),... ever leave?

Common sense would suggest "laying low" as you prescribed, Brad, for people in our country illegally. But Nooooooooo! The "illegals" have to be IN OUR FACE about their discontent because of their status (heck, they'd be thrown in jail if they did this in their own country).

Brad, I love your Rush optimism! You both know that the strength of our country is in our freedom; freedom to explore and pursue our creative "God given" talents to solve problems. Reminds me of "Doc" at the end of the first BACK TO THE FUTURE movie. Instead of needing plutonium as a fuel for his time machine in the future, his new invention, "Mr Fusion", uses beer cans and "trash" for fuel to power his time machine. --Ziobuck knowing with God all things are possible

Wow, so much here:

1. America is a great place, a wonderful land of opportunity. That's why people come here. This is a place where we are motivated by the ideal that if you work hard, you can have a good life for yourself. Who wouldn't want to live in a place like that?
2. Immigrating here legally is a mess. Asking people to wait three, four years while they can't make enough money to feed their kids is not going to work. They're going to come here any way they can. Of course we should respect the law, which is why illegal aliens should have to pay a fine, back taxes, and go to the back of the citizenship line.
3. Telling illegal immigrants from Central America to just go to France is simply laughable. Why did they come to the United States? Because it's cheap to sneak across the border. Plus, America is the best country on earth. Also, let's not forget that illegal immigrants have families here. Their kids are going to our colleges, making a life for themselves, and living the American dream.
4. Most illegal aliens like America and Americans. These protests came about as a reaction to those in Washington who wanted to round up all undocumented aliens and ship them out (an impossible proposition). This wasn't a spontaneous demonstration of hatred for America. It was a response by people who have deep roots in this country.

The bottom line is that these protests weren't about making sweeping demands. These are people who want to be acknowledged, who want to make a decent wage, who want to be a part of our country. If that's not American, I don't know what is.

1. Of course. We agree. It's the best country in the world in my humble opinion. Not sure the far left agrees. That was my comment.
2. Agree. My beef probably isn't really with the people as much as their American employers hiring them illegally. The mess should be fixed with our immigration. The laws are on the books but not enforced for political reasons. Compassion should be shown on the other side of the border (probably by the usual Christian outreach groups). BTW, love to here your opinion about what Mexico, a sovereign nation, should be doing about the border problem. I think Brad had a excellent observation about their President. You have any pithy comments for him?
3. Not sure you understood the joke. Oh well. Guess my humor is lame. You ever think those illegals tapping into our colleges and social sytems (hospital, welfare, etc) might be robbing our own citizenry of their rights? Guess you don't mind spending your hard earned money on illegals. Me, I'd like to have the freedom again to spend my money on the charities of my choice.
4. Agree. But, not sure "most" who were demonstrating are as you described. If they were I might be inclined to be sympathetic. Probably the ones loving our country the most were quietly working and praying the demonstrators were not going to jeopardize their "good thing". Of course, it may have just been a coincidence that the people interviewed on TV were the rare hostile ones who think their illegal status gave them some rights in this country of laws. Then there seemed to be others who were trying to rewrite history by saying they actually need to be taking back Mexican property that was stolen by the United States. And, I could be misinterpreting what I was seeing...but, why would people wanting to be assimilated in our wonderful country by waving Mexican flags. Spaceship, you also have to address the bad guys that are still trying to bring this country down (remember 9-11?) Think any MidEast radicals may be crossing the border with the good guys? You can count on it!). --Ziobuck agreeing with ya on a lot, but am still concerned for our country's security.

1. The far left may not agree. For that matter, the far right may not agree. The extremes are always just that, extreme. Far fewer people in this country exist on the ideological extremes than we think.
2. Mexico definitely has a role to play in fixing this problem. There are several issues to consider, though. First, Mexico doesn't have the financial resources we have to devote to border security. This has always been the problem when you have an industrial power next to a Third World country. Directing ire at Fox is sort of pointless right now, since he's on his way out. For his part, he's made an effort to fight the cronyism and corruption that dominates Mexican politics. Whoever succeeds him will have to continue that fight, while still making inroads against the crippling poverty that pushes so many people towards the U.S.
3. Well, since most on the political right do not believe that Americans have a right to a college education, I wasn't expecting to hear you say that illegal immigrants are depriving Americans of their rights. Welcome to the dark side. Illegal immigrants who go to our colleges do so because the college wanted them there. Most of the time, it's not the immigrants themselves, but their kids who end up in our schools. If they're going to be here, I think it's always a good thing that they get a college degree and move up the ladder. We're all better off when our neighbors go to school and get good jobs, so it helps when these kids have a chance to make their lives better rather than living on government aid. As far as welfare is concerned, the majority of welfare recipients are citizens of this country. If you came here illegally and are making a living because of forged documents or under-the-table income, chances are you're not registered with HHS. With regards to hospitals, most illegal immigrants are uninsured. That means they wind up in the emergency room for all kinds of things. Thus, we (the insured) end up paying more the next time we go to the doctor. What's the answer? First, provide a pathway for illegal immigrants to become citizens. The Senate plan is a good step in that direction. Second, make sure that every American has health insurance. Otherwise, we're just going to see these costs continue to rise. So, in conclusion, I don't mind spending my money on illegal immigrants, just like I don't mind spending some of my money on American citizens who are poor. For me, it's not charity. I already do that. It's simply the fact that, if I don't pay taxes to provide a safety net, I'll end up paying more later on down the road. It costs a society money when massive amounts of people are poor, sick, and uneducated. We all pay for it eventually. The question is do you want to pay a little bit now or a lot later?
4. I know people who were out there demonstrating, and they did so because they want their kids to have a better life than they did. I admire them, because they love this country and their communities, and they simply don't want to be rounded up and sent home, while their kids stay here. Media will always fan the flames of conflict, just because it's a better story. I saw plenty of folks on my local station and on national TV who expressed love for this country and disappointment that they were being dehumanized. Too many people believe that illegal immigrants came here to "reconquer" stolen land. It's a nice story, but it doesn't represent the real views of the people who came here. They came here for one very simple reason: to live. The Mexican flag-waving was a natural response by some who felt that they were being threatened. I'll remind you that many of the demonstrations were awash in American flags. I don't think flying the Mexican flag was as much a statement of national allegiance as ethnic pride, somewhat akin to displaying the colors of the Scottish clan one might be descended from. It's natural for people who feel like they're being attacked to respond with pride and defiance. If you tell people that they and their family are responsible for the country's problems, they're going to respond by demonstrating their pride in where they come from. In this case, I think the immigrants were right. They have much to be proud of, and the attacks on their culture were unjust and, in some cases, racist.

Everyone wants to stop those who are trying to destroy us. Border security is about national security. That's why we have to be smart about it and not give in to the demagogues and extremists. Our immigration system has to be reformed, and no one disputes that. The question is whether rounding up and deporting illegal immigrants is the best use of our resources. The 9/11 hijackers all came here legally and overstayed their visas. This demonstrates the need for comprehensive change in how we deal with immigration in this country. So, let's secure our borders in smart, practical ways and work on integrating those who are already here into our society.

Spaceship:
1. Well, look at John Kerry's Senate voting record. In the ideological spectrum, he was rated amongst the most "liberal" in the Senate. Half the U.S. voted for him in the Presidential election. Hmmm. Seems there are more in the extremes than you think. Ha.
2. So what is Vicente Fox paying you to be an apologist for him? The guy isn't fixing, or trying to fix anything. He wants the U.S. to solve his country's problems. He is doing everything he can to undermine our own border security and YOU defend him? The only thing you correctly intimated was that the corruption in their government is endemic and systemic. Our drug and people smuggling woes are directly related to their "enabling" policies.
3. Interesting that you keyed in on my misuse (admittedly) of the word "right". I only meant to use it to differentiate between those who have "citizenship" access (rights) to welfare programs, and those who should not (illegals--read: those unlawfully in our country who have tapped into tax money targeted for CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES). I wish, no pray, you would place your focus on the needs of the citizens in our country who NEED jobs, NEED education, NEED medical attention. The U.S. will go broke trying to be compassionate to those who can't make it in their own country. Perhaps THEY need to organize in the streets and rise up in their own countries to precipitate change? Ya think? Your socialist mindset exists in Europe. Having lived there for four years, I can tell you it is killing the soul of that part of the world. Most do not need handouts, but opportunity and freedom to try and make it in this world. Immigrants to the U.S. don't have that in their country and appreciate that about the U.S..
4. Again, nice apologetic for those in this country unlawfully (I'm trying to use "unlawful" versus the overused "illegal" because "illegal" is just a sick bird). Does the rule of law mean anything to you LIBS? Seriously. Just because something is difficult, you just organize folks to ignore the law? Remember Jesus saying "Render to Caesar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's" (paraphrase). He's saying to follow the rules of the governing authorities. You can't cherry pick what you like and don't like. People do that with God's Word too. --Ziobuck knowing reality is tough, both on the just and unjust

1. I don't consider John Kerry far left, at least I don't if you're defining far left as "someone who doesn't love this country." Ideology isn't really a static measurement. It's always relative to where you are. If you think John Kerry is extreme, chances are you're pretty extreme.
2. What do you base your conclusions about Fox on? What's he expected to do? First of all, his sexenio is almost up, meaning he doesn't have much in the way of political clout. Secondly, Mexico isn't bursting with cash. They have a hard enough time providing clean water, much less policing the border. Could they be doing a better job? You bet. But we're America! Since when do we sit around and wait for others to fix our problems? For his part, Fox has been a vast improvement over the PRI governments Mexico has previously had to deal with. Corruption is rampant, and Fox has tried valiantly to combat it. He wasn't extraordinarily successful, but he did make an effort.
3. I think it's funny that the right only cares about poor Americans when talking about immigration. Where was this concern for the unemployed, uneducated, uninsured in 2004? The fact is, most illegal immigrants don't tap into public services because they don't want to get caught and shipped back home. My view is that America has to make the best out of what it has. In this case, we've got about 11-20 million illegal immigrants. Most of those folks are here to stay. So, I'd rather take steps to make sure they have enough to eat, rather than get mugged by their kids when I'm walking to work. I'm not a socialist, I'm simply a realist. We know from experience that our economy only works if it's working for everyone. If people become a drain on society, it drags us all down. Thus, we only need to arm people with the opportunity to make their lives better. Unfortunately, for many people, that opportunity isn't there.
4. Obviously the law is important. That's why any guest worker program should require applicants to get in the back of the citizenship line, pay back taxes and a fine, and have a clean record. That's the best balance between some insane "round 'em up" scheme and complete amnesty. Again, let's remember what the House Republicans want to do: they actually want to make it illegal for anyone to help an illegal immigrant. That means churches, charities, good Samaritans. Me, I can't think of a more blatant violation of my Christian ethics.

Spaceship:
1. Thanks for the comic relief. Let's see...I had alway heard Dennis Kucinich had the reputation of holding the most left-wing congressional voting record. But, according to the American Conservative Union, Kerry has a lifetime rating of 6 percent, compared to 15 for Kucinich and 19 for Sen. Joe Lieberman. Sens. Hillary Clinton scored 13 percent. Only the likes of Sens. Teddy Kennedy and Barbara Boxer have more left-wing records than Kerry. In contrast, Sen. John Breaux, one of the upper chamber’s few remaining moderate Democrats, has a 46. If you do not think KERRY is extreme, perhaps YOU ARE! Personally, I believe John Kerry does love his country. How could he not? Instead of being in jail for aiding and abetting the enemy (Vietnamese government), he was made a senator in the U.S. Senate. Ah, we Americans are so forgiving and forgetful.

BTW, you said, "Ideology isn't really a static measurement. It's always relative to where you are." That is pure psycho-babble. You can't get any more static (other than zero) than a 6% rating by the ACU for a "life-time" voting record.

2. I still think you are on Vicente Fox's payroll. My conclusions about Fox is based on his meddling with our country instead of paying attention to his own. Two and a half years ago, Mr. Fox visited three southwestern states--New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas--and their political elites. His business was to put pressure on our political leaders for amnesty. Then, after being wined and dined by the submissive governors and lawmakers, Mr. Fox proceeded to harangue the aliens in New Mexico to push for amnesty themselves. There are a couple of little problems here. The most obvious is that the head of state of a foreign government, which is about to enter negotiations with the Untied States over the issue of immigration, is actively and openly seeking to apply political pressures within this country to influence both the negotiations and the internal politics of the nation. (Back in the Cold War, when foreign nations did this sort of thing, it was called "subversion," and foreign agents who engaged in it were either kicked out or locked up) Then there is yet another little problem. The U.S. Constitution explicitly states (Article I, section 10), "No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation." OK, no state has, but the point of the constitutional language is to prevent states from conducting their own foreign policies and reserve to the federal government—(rightly so)—the authority to conduct relations with foreign countries.

3. Disagree. Concern for unemployed, uneducated, uninsured has always been a conservative issue. The difference between left and right on these issues is usually one of accountability and practicality. The left talks a good game, but doesn't deliver. They want to throw all kinds of money at the problem...my money and yours. I'm not sure if "most immigrant don't tap into public services" is true or not. My gut feel is that it is NOT true. My wife has worked in public schools here in Tucson and there are a lot of immigrant kids in the system. I don't know their legal status, but their poor English would point the other way. Also, heard a few first-hand accounts of people waiting for hospital emergency room services. Nurses divided those waiting to be serve into two groups, illegals and legals with insurance. Bet you can guess who got served first. Yes, the illegals!

4. GLad to hear you think the law is important. I was being to wonder. We have differing view points though. You seem to think crossing a sovereign nation's borders is not a bad thing, because after all, the crossers are just trying to get a better life. Well, the first thing about treating one's alcoholism is to admit you're an alcoholic. In kind, the first thing in solving an immigration problem is to recognize that laws are being violated. Our country doesn't seem to be united in that understanding. I think the Republicans are trying to say if you are a business knowingly hiring illegal aliens, then you are breaking the law. Libs sure hate accountability. BTW, regarding churches, charities, and good Samaritans: Good stuff. It's absolutey required by our faith to help the less fortunate. But, you don't do this by overthrowing the laws of the land. You use your own monies, not tax payer monies. You help by teaching the aliens your language. You help by helping them become legal. Also, have you ever heard of missions trips? Habitat for humanity? Go there and help them. Build a house. Help them plant and harvest. Help them help themselves. Your Christian ethics should start by obeying the law. --Ziobuck just answering the comments

1. Ideology isn't static. Voting scores are fun, and sometimes can be useful, but I don't think any political scientist considers them accurate measures of ideology. This is because ideology is so hard to measure. Scholars still argue over what it means to be a "liberal." Obviously, the meaning of that word has changed a great deal over the last 200 years, and it still means different things in different situations. Basing your evaluation of someone's ideology on their score from some think tank or special interest group can be misleading. For instance, say someone votes against the President's tax cuts because there weren't enough spending cuts to prevent deficit spending. Is that conservative or liberal? Or say someone votes against the Federal Marriage Amendment because they don't believe the Federal Government should have that authority, but they support state amendments. Is that conservative or liberal? So you see, there are tremendous problems with trying to objectively measure someone's thoughts. We got into this because you said that you didn't think the Far Left loved America. I said maybe, and that probably there are some extremists from all political persuasions who don't love our country. The vast majority, though, do love this country. Then you somehow decided that those who voted for John Kerry hate this country, meaning roughly half of the American electorate hates America. When you find the planet on which that is a rational argument, I will join you there.

2. Fox's lobbying of American government is not unusual. It happens all the time. Heck, the other day, the PM of Israel addressed the US Congress to enlist support if there is a war with Iran. Foreign governments are constantly lobbying American lawmakers in an effort to change policies. It's especially common from Mexico and Canada, because we share borders and trade openly with each other.

3. There are lots of children of illegal immigrants in our schools. Some of them are actually U.S. citizens, some of them are not. I personally would rather those kids be getting an education than running around in the streets getting into trouble. If they're going to live in this country, wouldn't you rather them be able to get a good job and pay their taxes and contribute to society? Secondly, the story about the emergency room is dubious. I've never heard of nurses forgoing the usual triage rules in favor of splitting people up based on citizenship status. Insurance status, maybe. But not citizenship.

4. Illegal immigrants have broken the law. That's why I think they ought to get in the back of the line, pay back taxes, and pay a fine. Only after they've done those things, fulfilled a residency requirement, and kept a clean record, should they be able to become citizens. That's what I support, that's what the President supports, what Democrats and Republicans in Congress support. The reason for this is simple: we cannot arrest and deport 12-20 million people. It's impractical. Thus, we have to work with what he have. The House bill that the extreme right Republicans came up with makes it illegal for anyone to give aid to an illegal immigrant. That means it would be illegal for a church group to provide a warm meal to someone who came to them. It would be illegal for a charity to provide a bed for a homeless person. That's immoral.

My dear Spaceship:
I have to hand it to you; you have the liberal technique in arguing down pat. But, just for the record and for sport, let’s correct a few misleading comments you made for our readership, shall we?

1) Spaceship wrote: “We got into this because you said that you didn't think the Far Left loved America. I said maybe, and that probably there are some extremists from all political persuasions who don't love our country. The vast majority, though, do love this country. Then you somehow decided that those who voted for John Kerry hate this country, meaning roughly half of the American electorate hates America. When you find the planet on which that is a rational argument, I will join you there.”

I would ask you to reread my posts. In any of my posts did I say the Far Left didn’t love America? I did say, “It's the best country (the USA) in the world in my humble opinion. Not sure the far left agrees.” How you extrapolated “hate”, I could only imagine it to be liberal bias. I only meant to imply that some on the far left might consider another country “best”, perhaps even France. In fact, YOU introduced the idea of hate when you said, “I don't consider John Kerry far left, at least I don't if you're defining far left as "someone who doesn't love this country." I even pointed out that I believed John Kerry does love his country.

Again, I never said that half America hated America. I wrote that they voted for someone whose life time Senate voting record makes him one of the most liberal Senators in the country, i.e., “extreme left”. I implied in humor that there are more extremes in this country that you thought.

Spaceship, when you find a planet where you can read someone’s posts with clarity, instead of applying your own definitions of words based on your liberal bias, then I will join you there!

BTW, though I agree ideology doesn’t have to be static, I only used the numbers to show how some people seem to never change, even over a career in Senate voting. I personally assess people on what they say they believe/do not believe in. John Kerry doesn’t believe in the sanctity of life (though his religion says to). In fact, John Kerry doesn’t have a problem with partial birth abortion. I find that repugnant on many levels. John Kerry doesn’t believe in the sanctity of marriage between a man and woman. I do. John Kerry thinks the United Nations should govern the affairs of man on this planet. I think the UN should be dissolved. I won’t even go into what He thinks of the military. He’s been all over the map on that issue.

2) I don’t have a problem with PMs addressing Congress. Don’t think to kindly of those pandering to our "state" officials.

3) Yeah, let’s celebrate the fact that illegal’s are in our classrooms, not on the streets. One thing that needs to be changed in this country is the current automatic “citizenship” for birth here. I don’t think birth in most countries automatically grants one a citizenship right there, and for good reason.

4) Impractical is having an ever expanding government with entitlements for both citizens and non-citizens. Our country will collapse from the debt. No one is attempting to fix the Social Security problem that the Prez was pushing for a year ago. Now I understand that the Senate is actually proposing that those here illegally and paying taxes (through falsified documents), when they are granted amnesty and made U.S. Citizens, will be able to tap into Social Security from the time they were here illegally (more insanity). BTW, I haven’t read the House proposal on illegal immigration. But your charges sound like typical liberal spin, i.e., those evil Republicans are trying to poison our children with arsenic, they’re taking our children’s lunch milk away, etc. –Ziobuck with conservative ideology

Wow, tough one. Always one to extend mercy to someone whose had a hard time, and lives in a tough place. I personally did not have to live in Mexico to have it bad....... It was bad here, for a long time for me. Only by Gods grace has it gotten any better. Good thing about it was I had choices. I could choose to quit, or survive. And finding out about Jesus definitely put me in the right place. Do I agree with Brad? on the illegals. Of course, the word illegal pretty much wraps it up....... Go through the process, and do it right, and get on the boat that so many have floated, which by the way is why USA is USA....
Now the gas, dont get me started. I paid $36 to fill up a saturn. Please, help, someone. I like cheese... But I am paying a lot for cheese also. I am seriously looking for a 5 seater bike. I am disgusted with gas pumps, and disgusted with the poor gas station owners who are constantly justifying to me every time I fill up, with their legitimate excuses that there making only pennies on the gallon.... I believe them. But that does not help my situation. If you ask me the gas problem is A number one on the hit list of crap I cant tolerate. Whatever the complex problem is, they had better figure it out quick, because lets face it, people drive, and people need money to survive. If the tank is stopping my kids from eating, I'm not happy. Everyone is horribly affected by the increase, and I dont want to hear the gas station owners speech on what gas was when he was a kid. Newsflash, your old, gas will never be 15cents a gallon, and it should never be above three dollars for my entire lifetime. Inflation, give me a break, exaggeration. If you ask me, the Flintstones cars were economical, stylish, and they went from point A to point B with their bare feet. Now thats America! jC Fred and Barney, no helmet required.

The problem with telling people to go through the legal process is that it is cumbersome, lengthy, and bureaucratic. If you have kids who are hungry and poor, and you have a chance to give them a better life, aren't you going to take that chance. Anything less would be wrong.

ok maybe it's just me...but yeah this is a tough issue. though it could totally be solved with a stone or wire fence. you know i understand that your country maybe hard...but please...just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

ok to be blunt about what I really think...here's a blog I wrote about it. The illegals that is...

I Pledge Allegiance to The United States of Mexico...
Aliens have been in this country for years. Its now a really big deal. Is it right or is it wrong? Let me tell you straight off…it’s wrong. Nothing you say could convince me otherwise. Let’s look at this.

1. 12-20 million aliens are here. That’s a bloody lot of people that don’t exist on ANY of the US records. Is this fair? NO! What about the people who emigrate from Europe? They went threw the right way. They had to. They live across the sea. They can’t just step over the Atlantic and all of a sudden be in America. So the Mexicans just do it because they can.

2. They are here illegally. Let’s review exactly what that means. Illegal means against the law. So basically they are fugitives that deserve to be arrested. I mean why not? That’s what normally happens. Am I wrong?

3. They aren’t here to be Americans; they are here to be Mexicans. Yes its true. These illegals have absolutely no desire to learn English. I’m so sorry but English is the main language of this country. Everyone here speaks it, if you plan on living here, you better too. Go learn English. I will NOT accommodate you so that you don’t have to learn MY language in MY country. One word for this: Lazy. They maybe good workers, but they don’t better themselves beyond that. This is America, not Mexico, get it straight. Learn how to talk! They have also waved the Mexican flag at rallies. You know, I respect your heritage and I understand you are proud of it and I’m sure that if I learned about it I would think it was cool. Dedicate a room of your house to it I don’t care, but if you’re going to live here you are an AMERICAN! Leave your old culture at home and pick up the American. If you have a problem with that go back to Mexico. Illegals have to become apart of our culture, and yes America does have a culture of it’s own. We can’t just change our culture just because one race wants to come in. That would wipe America bye bye. We have our own culture, stop coming into my country and pushing your culture on me.

4. Illegals right? Are you kidding me? That’s about as good as terrorist rights. I’m so sorry, but no. You don’t deserve rights, you’re here ILLEGALLY!

5. Illegals are a burden on the government. They take things that are meant for the America citizens. Because of this Americans are not getting what they deserve but the illegals get what they want.

Solution:

1. All illegals should be found and arrested.

2. They are allowed a trial, fair trial at that (then hang them, that’s the way I’d have it). They can either: a.) be packaged up and shipped back to Mexico never to return again or b.) 1. Become legal, 2. Pay a massive fine, and 3. Serve at the least 5 years in prison.

3. Any part of the US that is connected to Mexico needs a massive wall put up. Wire or stone, doesn’t matter. Then have watchtowers 20 yards away from each other with snipers on top.

Problem solved. I will never pledge allegiance to the United States of Mexico because it will always be the United States of America.

1. Are you actually saying that having any aliens in the country is bad, or just the ones here illegally?
2. Most people who came from Europe in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and beginning of the 20th centuries did not go through the right processes, mostly because there were no real processes. If you were on the right boat at the right place at the right time, you were an American. Nowadays, we have a different system so that we can protect our country. It's apples and oranges.
3. Your blanket statements about immigrants reveal your ignorance. First of all, illegal immigrants are from many countries, not just Mexico. I know some from the Dominican Republic (their kids were born in the U.S.). I used to help teach English at my church to immigrants. Some were illegal, some were not. Some spoke Spanish, some spoke Korean, some spoke Russian. They wanted to learn English. Why? Because it's hard to make it in the United States without knowing English. Your post has the distinct odor of racism to it, which has no place on a Christian website, no matter how conservative.
4. The amazing thing about America is that we have all kinds of different cultures here, and they all make our nation interesting. Big cities in America have, for years, been exhibitions of the wonders of America's cultural makeup. That's why it's almost impossible for sociologists to define "American culture." It's also why we're the envy of the world.
5. Equating illegal immigrants with terrorists is irresponsible and doesn't do justice to the people threatened and killed by terrorists around the world.
6. Economists who have studied the economic impact of illegal immigrants have estimated that if every illegal immigrant were to leave tomorrow, our economy will collapse. This canard that immigrants are just taking and taking without giving back is ridiculous.
7. There are anywhere from 11 million to 20 million illegal immigrants in the United States. That's equivalent to the population of the state of Ohio. Do you have any idea what arresting all those people would entail? I've heard it put this way: it would take over 200,000 buses lined up from San Diego, CA to Alaska to ship them all out of the country. Are you ready for your taxes to skyrocket in order to pay for the most massive law enforcement operation in the history of the United States?
8. Hanging someone for coming here illegally so they can feed their kids? Whatever we do to the least of these, we do to Christ.
9. Building a wall along the Mexican border would be equivalent to building a wall from the Washington Monument to the Sears Tower. How much would that cost? Remember, we are fighting a trillion dollar war in Iraq.

Instead of listening to the demagogues, racists, and extremists, we should be finding a practical, fair, and tough approach to this problem.

Spaceship, the racist thing. Seriously, I was going to try to explain why I do not feel that this is a racist thing, but, well, I dont feel the need to justify something that is obviously not racism.
People on the boat, at the right place, at the right time, during a time, where they were not illegal, and now as a result of those great people of all ethnicities coming here, and getting off of the boat, and getting jobs, and raising familys, and working hard, and creating a country, that was stolen from someone else, participating in government, and eventually, made laws in hopes of dealing with the complexity of being part of a country. And one of those laws is, come to america, go through the legal hoops. You will find scripture that instructs us to follow the laws of land we inhabit, as long as it does not go against the instruction of God.
Nobody works harder then the illegal immigrants (some from mexico) that have entered this country. They work hard for a dollar, and sometimes thats all they earn. And if people were so worried about them being illegal, why did they hire them. Because they're hard workers, and they appreciate the opportunity of getting paid for their hard work. They should also appreciate the laws of a country they desire to inhabit, and raise their children in. Not because its fair, but because its the law,,,,, now, not during boat time, but now.
Nobody that follows Christ would not want to reach out and help those that are hurting, and it is my prayer that not only would the immigrants abide by the process and the law, but for those that take the effort to respect the law be given resources to better assist them in making a life for themselves in the land of the free. One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all. Key word here is Under God, and for all. Justice is carried out when someone breaks the law. When we stop putting the law of the land on a sliding scale, isnt it bad enough we do that with sin itself and Gods laws.
As for a practical, fair, and tough approach to the problem.
How about this logical approach, and keep in mind, its just an approach.
There is no approach. Where they live sucks so bad, they will do anything to get out of there and then send money to their families. We cant stop that, its called survival. We dont have the man power, and we cant stop the people in the States from hiring them, basically because they'll work for nothing, and most people just cant stand to see people starve even if they've broken the law. If there was a practical, fair , and tough approach to the problem, wouldnt it have been explored.
Every immigrant that comes across that line has a story, and most of them are horrible. And the conclusion is, why does Mexico suck. Its obvious why they want to live here, but what can we do to help Mexico?. If you dont want the neighbors at your house, go fix up theirs. If my house has all the conveniences of a Hotel, why would I ever leave home. just a thought, and by the way spaceship, I can understand your heart for the needy, and for the tremendous scale of the problem, its just the racism thing kind of threw me for a loop. That just isnt how I see the problem, and the frustration experienced by everyone affected by this. My prayer is for resolve. jC

What about changing the law of the land so that helping someone who happened to be an illegal immigrant was illegal? Doesn't that contradict what God tells us to do?

I see your point spaceship!, its tough. It is very hard to obey the laws of the land, and still follow God. Especially when there are attempts to remove God. It is my prayer that those that Love the Lord will do what they can do, to lend a helping hand to those in need. It is obvious there has to be a better way. May it be our pray to pray for those who have that power of decision making, to make some tough decisions, so that perhaps more will benefit from this great land we have been allowed to inhabit. jC

1. If you do it illegally your doing it wrong. I'm not against other people being here, just do it right.
2. Actually people had to go threw Ellis Island to come here. Do you know anything about that?
3. I'm not as ignorant as you would assume. I understand that they come from other countries as well. I was speaking to the majority, Mexicans, which is the current problem.
4. Are you kidding me? No way, I wouldn't have even thought we weret he envy of the world! Unbelievable!
5. Rights! Can you read?! Cause you didn't read what I wrote.
6. So what is your brainy solutinon, since you know SO much?
7. You know I'm totally cool with them getting them out of here and Idont' really care how much it costs. Yeah it may suck...but it won't last for forever. And this is just the illegals mind you...not the ones who came here the right way.
8. I wish you knew what sarcasm is.
9. Do you want to keep our country safe or not? Once again, what is your brainy solution?

1. The immigration system was incredibly porous prior to WWII. The notion that everyone who came to this contry had to go through Ellis Island is laughable. You've been watching too many movies.
2. So, only illegal immigrants from Mexico are contributing to "the current problem"?
3. You said that talking about illegal immigrant rights was the same thing as talking about terrorist rights. By saying this, you were equating illegal immigrants with terrorists. Aside from being a logically insipid argument, it's also morally reprehensible.
4. You want my solution? First, you have to toughen up border security on both borders. It's a national security issue. We need more Border Patrol guards, and better technology. Second, you have figure out what to do with the people who are here. Deporting or imprisoning them isn't an option. I favor a guest worker program, which would put illegal immigrants on the path to citizenship. They would have to pay back taxes and a fine, get in line behind those coming here legally, be here for a minimum of seven years, and have a clean record.
5. My point wasn't that it would cost a lot to round up everyone and deport them. My point was that it's not going to happen. We don't have the people, the money, or the political will to do it. It's not going to happen, so we might as well find a sensible solution.
6. Everyone wants to keep our country safe. The question is the best way to do it. Do you really think a wall is going to do much to stop a suicidal maniac who wants to destroy our country? For Heaven's sake, it's the 21st century, and we'd better start thinking like it. This is an assymetrical conflict, and our technology is one area in which the assymetry falls on our side. We can use our technological dominance and innovation to protect our borders without sinking billions of dollars into a wall that won't work. Public policy is about doing the best you can with what you have, and we're not in a position to waste money on costly projects that would take years to complete.

1. I never said that they ALL came through Ellis Island. And for the record, I live on a farm and the only movies I tend to watch are 24 on dvd, on season 2 right now...great show btw. I watch the news everyday and that's about it, I'm really bussy due to horses and grass (cutting it). I'm not a true movie goer or anything. You assume way too much so please do us a favor and stop. Besides I don't even know any movies having to deal with Ellis Island. And if I watch a historical movie...it's generally about WW2 and fight, not immigration.
2. I said the majority of the problem. I know that there's others...I'm not that dumb. Mexican's are the majority though. Please read what I actually write, thank you.
3. In my mind, terrorist rights and illegal rights is in the same position. Stupid and apart of the left wing agenda.
4. Everything you just said is what Bush said on tv Monday night.
5. Fair enough. I still think it should be done though.
6. Everybody doesn't want to keep our country safe. Liberals want to give rights to terrorists. Yes that's definately keeping our country safer. I never said that it would stop a suicidal maniac from anything. I don't agree with you that the wall wouldn't work. I think it would discourage many. Completely behind what Bush said and I think that we do need a wall.

1. I just copied and pasted this from your earlier post, "Actually people had to go threw Ellis Island to come here." So yeah, you did say that everyone had to come through Ellis. And that's just plain wrong.
2. Again, copy and paste: " I was speaking to the majority, Mexicans, which is the current problem." This statement implies that Mexicans make up the majority of illegal immigrants, and that this majority is the current problem. Just thought it was interesting that only Mexicans are the problem.
3. Equating terrorists with illegal immigrants is absolutely indefensible. Terrorists kill civilians to accomplish political goals. Illegal immigrants come here for a better life. When you say that giving rights to an illegal alien is like giving rights to a terrorist, you are spitting in the face of the some of the best people I've known.
4. Yes, the President's position is very similar to mine. My position is in support of a bill in the Senate crafted by Ted Kennedy and John McCain, and supported by Senators from both parties. While the President hasn't expressly endorsed the bill, he has asked for something very similar.
5. As a liberal, I have to say, I had no idea I wanted to give rights to terrorists. Fascinating. Anything else about myself I should know? By the way, I hear that conservatives want to kill poor people. Yep, that must be true.

so, you're saying that you don't want illegal immigrants to stay, because they are taking funds away from citizens for healthcare, education, etc, but you would be willing to support the costs of shipping them all out or housing them in jail for five years? doesn't make a lot of sense...

Interesting points, Brad. I've gone into this in depth on my blog (http://trueconservatism115.blogspot.com/), so I'll give the abreviated version here.

Zio, I don't find it hard to believe at all that illegal immigrants are protesting in our streets. In a way, this puts us on the same level as France, who, a few months back, had the protests by the "disaffected youths", who were, in fact, young Muslims who were being discriminated against because they refused to assimilate into France's culture. This protest does not surprise me because it is the embodiment of American liberalism at work. Act like a victim and politicians will treat you like a victim...especially if you act like a potential voting bloc, which is the root of our illegal immigrant problem: too many politicians capitulating to a potential voting bloc, rather than taking the actions that their constituents voted them into office to take.

The thing that surprised me, and continues to disgust me, is that the California State Assembly voted (along party lines) to officially endorse the May Day travesty. The last thing we need our government doing is telling foreign nationals that it's okay to march in our streets and tell us how much we suck. The First Amendment applies to citizens of the United States...not to people who decide to just come in illegally, no matter what the reason.

It's hard to go too hard on these people - after all, they've been going through a heck of a time in Mexico, what with its corrupt government that is all too willing to export their poverty problem to the US rather than doing anything substantive about it. But on the other hand, the minute we start excusing illegal behavior is the minute that our laws don't matter a whit. And we've been excusing this illegal behavior for far too long now.

Touche' Monsieuer Stine! And now that I've got you REALLY ANGRY by making you think about THOSE PEOPLE - remember that your words never ring more true when encountering the massive numbers of PUPPET PEOPLE out here in Seattle!

Now, a better thought, check this kid out, you might want to take him out on the road with you:

http://www.relevantbooks.com/splashes/bradley/commercial.htm

http://www.myspace.com/bradleyhathaway

Brad I love this.

Welcome to my BlogRWRoll!

RWR
www.rightwingrocker.com

<I>Challenge an American to be unable to come up with an alternate solution and history has shown that your gonna find yourself on the outside looking in.</i>

Truer words were ne'er spake.

RWR
www.rightwingrocker.com

Why do Conservatives assume that everyone is acting as selfish as they are? Necessity drives that wagon, not arrogance.

BTW, how many people here know how most of our illegal immigrants arrived? WITH VISAS! When their Visas expire their status is changed to illegal. The Border runner problem is a perpetuated by our Neoliberal media (we need to make the distinction, our media is NOT genuinely liberal).

Conservatives need to get over their persecution complex and finally realize that they ALWAYS win when it comes to anything that matters. Time to piddle in our own sandboxes for a change...