I am a liberal Democrat (audible gasp). And I am a Christian (pitchforks sharpening). I identify with the Democratic party because its values are mostly in line with my values. Democrats like Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy embodied the principles of their party: concern for equality, balancing strong defense with prudent foreign policy, and a belief that America's economy isn't really working until it's working for everyone. To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what the Democratic party's social agenda is. While the party is mostly pro-choice, there are many prominent pro-life Democrats. Likewise, while Democrats tend to be more accepting of gays and lesbians, most prominent Democrats are against full-fledged gay marriage. I know that my social agenda (I'm pro-choice and I support gay marriage) is rooted in a deeply personal understanding of God's word and my own experience with my fellow humans. I don't like abortion one bit, and would celebrate right beside you if the number of abortions dropped to zero. Still, I feel that a woman should not be denied the legal option to safely terminate the pregnancy. What really frustrates me is when people who oppose abortion refuse to support the sex-ed programs that are proven to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. As far as gay marriage goes, my position is personal, as my brother is gay. He and his partner have had a beautiful, committed relationship, and are more worthy of marriage than many straight couples I know. I realize that many Christians don't see Scripture the way I do and disagree with me strongly. Many of my closest brothers and sisters in Christ have serious disagreements with my views. Still, I pray that we can find a common ground, rooted in the love that only comes from the Almighty. I know I'm not the only liberal Christian, and I believe that the party's search for its spiritual message is derived from the urgings of Christians and Jews within the party. For sure, there are many who seek to use religion as a tool to gain votes, but there are many in the Republican party who are guilty of the same crime. I am not ashamed or apologetic about my worldview, and I do believe it is consistent with my faith. I don't think that being a liberal means being un-Christian, just like I don't think that being a conservative means being a Christian.

I find it difficult to believe that a person who professes himself to be a Christian can, with full faith and seriousness, state that he "feel[s] that a woman should not be denied the legal option to safely terminate the pregnancy[.]" Do you honestly believe that Jesus would agree with you?

Notice I am not saying that sex education should be banned from schools. The necessity of sex education, I believe, stems from a delinquency of our own society's familial failure to raise our children properly. It saddens me deeply to know that our schools need to teach our kids to use a condom because we haven't taught them not to have sex.

Back to my original complaint, if you do not believe that life begins at conception, then we are at an impasse since I would be arguing for life and you would be arguing against unsustainable tissue. And my closing remarks on that belief are, if it were true that God did not imbue a human with a soul until some point late in the third trimester, then it would only be a matter of time before our esteemed scientists deduced the exact moment thus enabling them to capture God at work. And here I say, "Good luck with that."

To be totally honest with you, I don't know when life begins. I don't know when God considers us to be living human beings, entitled to human rights. I personally have trouble saying that a fetus should have rights, when it is entirely dependent upon the woman for everything. Still, I'd be the first to admit that I struggle with the issue of life. As far as what Jesus would say, I would not deign to conjecture on that. I do know that many Protestant denominations, including mine (the United Methodist Church), support the upholding of Roe v. Wade, so it is not so incredible that a "real" Christian would support choice. I fully understand the logic and merit of the pro-life position, but I cannot agree with it, partly because of my faith. More specifically: my belief that those who face the hardships of life are my responsibility, coupled with what I know about those who struggle with unwanted pregancy, leads me to the conclusion that the "safe" position is one that calls for abortion to be safe, legal, and rare. I don't think this makes me a bad person or a bad Christian, just as I don't think George W. Bush is a bad Christian because of his position on abortion. Maybe Christians should spend more time uniting to fight against poverty, hunger, and apathy, and less time bickering about divisive issues like abortion. This is not to say that abortion isn't an important issue, but we have to realize it is an outgrowth of more fundamental social problems.

amen, sly!!!! :)

As much as I am pro-life, I have to admit that I am pro-life because of my political views and not because I think it is somewhat "Christian" to be such. Abortion - as murder - is definitely a sin. You will hear no argument from me regarding that fact. However, where in the life of Christ do we see an example of Christ interfering with people's free will to choose sin? In fact, where in the whole Bible do we see such interference? Jesus did not even interfere and stop them when they murdered HIM.

All I'm saying is that, regardless of my position on an issue of sin (i.e. Abortion or Gay Marriage), it is most definitely NOT my place to try and force other people to abide by it. God created humanity with freedom of choice, and we have no right to try and take that freedom away.

I agree with you that God gives us freedom of choice. Historically, though, he had something to say (and do) to those who chose unwisely. It's a nice thought to say it is not my place to force other people to abide in my beliefs, but that isn't what is going on in our culture. Due to apathy and not getting involved with the issues, the liberals and activist judges are "forcing" their "ungodly" beliefs on us. They are taking MY freedom away.

spaceship,

Let me help you with some of your questions. You don't know when life begins. I ask you to read your Bible and as it says "Let God be true and every man a liar"

So here you go:
Psalm 139:13
For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.


Exodus 21:22
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23"But if there is any further injury, (A)then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.

So, you can see that 1.) Life begins in the womb. God doesn't specify at what day or week life begins. So I think its safe to assume that HE considers it life as soon as He creates it. I think its a dangerous position to take when we start deciding when life begins or not.

2.) We are fearfully and wonderfully made. We now know that DNA code is unique for every person who ever lived. So that little life is completely unique and can never again be recreated (even by the same parents).

3.) God takes the death of an unborn child pretty seriously...so much that He calls for the life of anyone who takes the life of the unborn.

" A professor in a college ethics class presented his students with a problem. He said, " A man has syphilis and his wife has tuberculosis. They have had four children: one has dies, the other three have what is considered to be a terminal illness. The mother is pregnant. What do you recommend?" After a spirited discussion, the majority of the class voted that she abort the child. "Fine," said the professor. "You've just killed Beethoven."


In regard to the issue of homosexuality. The Bible is crystal clear here. It is an abomination before the Lord.

ROMANS 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections; for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And like wise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in lust one toward another; man with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

I CORINTHIANS 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders...

No question that you can not reconcile homosexuality with Christianity.

But the problem of homosexuality goes deeper than the sin itself. You see, before I knew Christ, I lived a sexually inappropriate lifestyle. So whats the difference between my sin and that of a homosexual? None. They are both sin. However, I have come to know Christ and with the grace and salvation that I have been given, my heart has changed and I desire to please God. In other words, I have repented (as commanded). If you are truly saved, repentance is the natural by-product of faith. Do I still have sinful fleshly desires? Sure, everyone does. But I deny those desires so that I may please the God that saved me. What we are talking about here is repentance and a changed heart. The homosexual will not refuse his/her sinful desires. They are more interested in pleasing self than Christ. This is why they will never see the Kingdom of God. The Bible is clear on that.

Grace and Truth-

Yes, I would agree with you that many Christians lack grace and love for their neighbor. But many (liberal) Christians lack saving truth. There has to be a balance. Think about it, would you want me to tell you the truth if (being your Dr.)I knew you had cancer? Or would you rather me tell you things that make you feel better? Of course you would want me to tell you the truth, so you can do something about the cancer that (if left untreated) will ultimately kill you. So why then would you let those you love spend an eternity in utter torment just because you don't want to hurt their feelings. If you love someone you tell them the truth. Do you realize Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about heaven?

Wishy-Washy faith.

The problem with the modern (liberal) church is that they are so willing to compromise on Biblical matters.

Not only did Jesus say He would remove their candle (to the apostate church) He will also cast away the wishy-washy Christian:

Revelation 3:15
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

In regard to the sex education issue let me tell you a little about my life. I was never taught abstanace. Which is what we should be teaching kids. How to respect themselves and how to wait and give that special gift to their spouse. I took some hard lumps because of what I had not been taught. I got my girfriend pregnant at 16. I drove her to abort that innocent little life. Doyou think that only women regret abortion? I am not a woman, and I hurt every day because of that one decision.

So the sex has its consequence, and I made matters much worse by killing that baby. You say that a "fetus" can't live without its mother...a newborn or even a 3 year old can't either. Where do you draw the line?

I am 36 years old now, and I still morn that child and I still think about what he/she might have been like. They never had a choice, why did I?

It gets worse. I am married to a wonderful woman who was not taught abstanance either. Because of that she has HPV. Both of her tubes are scared so bad that we will never have children of our own. Our actions DO have consequences and we need to tell kids the truth. Did you know that the condom has an extreemly low HIV prevention rate? It can keep a girl from getting pregnant (although 1 in 5 break) . However, latex actually has pores. Those pores are small enough to hold back a sperm cell...but did you know the HIV virus is 1 million times smaller....and it DOES penetrate latex.

Did you know that the Center for Disease control now estimates that 1 in 3 high schoolers has at least 1 of the 52 sexually transmitted diseases that are out there now?

Its time to take a stand for what we KNOW is right, and what we KNOW is the truth.
If your faith hasn't changed your life, you had better change your faith.

I suspect that a big part of what constitutes the gulf between liberal and conservative Christians is the way we read Scripture. Liberals see the Bible as the Word of God, spoken through humans. Thus, while the Bible reveals God's truth, it also contains evidence of its human origins. This is why the Bible contains so much sexism, prejudice, and violence in the name of God. Liberals interpret these difficult passages as human traits, while conservatives either simply ignore the contradictions or explain that God changes the "rules" as He goes. Every mainstream Christian interprets the Bible non-literally to some degree, the question is simply: do we face the difficult questions and try to reconcile them with God's truth as we experience it, or do we obfuscate and dodge the matter? For example, the Ten Commandments forbid adultery. Scholars tell us, however, that in Ancient Hebrew culture, as in most cultures of the time, it was not considered adultery for a man to have sex with an unmarried woman other than his wife. So, do we adhere to the literal meaning of the Scripture and only require women to avoid extramarital intercourse, or do look at the passage in context and interpret what it means in today's life? The liberal position is to look at the passage and realize that literal adherence to the law would be unfair and discriminatory, so we should consider all extramarital sex adultery. This is why I am able to read passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality and put them in proper context. You can't insist that certain Biblical decrees (like those against homosexuality) be strictly adhered to while ignoring other decrees (like those prohibiting women from wearing their hair a certain way or wearing certain jewelry) all together. But I know I will probably never convince you to change the way you read the Bible. The best I can hope for is to explain that liberals do believe in truth, but we place limits on man's ability to grasp and articulate truth. I believe that God is a God of absolutes, but I also believe that we can't always know truth, since we are by nature humans, not God. This is why I believe that people of different denominations, faiths, cultures, and political persuasions can still unite around basic fundamental principles. We could never do this if one side was clearly "right" all the time, and the other side clearly "wrong". Obviously sex outside of marriage is harmful. That's why it is a sin. And obviously abstinence is the safest method of birth control, just like walking is the best way to avoid a car accident. Still, abstinence-only education doesn't work. Half of the kids just tune it out because they're already having sex, and the other half don't actually learn anything for when they DO have sex. Public schools can't and shouldn't teach what is and isn't a sin. All they can teach is how to make good and bad choices. Schools should be teaching kids: "Using a condom when you have sex is a good choice. Not having sex altogether is an even better choice. Here are the facts, and here's how you can make good decisions." Abstinence-only education doesn't do this, as most of the time, they are permitted from even saying the word "condom".
I don't think the question of when life begins is as easily answered as you portray it. In Ancient Jewish tradition, an unborn child or fetus was not considered to be a person until it emerged from the womb, and an embryo was considered water until the fortieth day! And even once the child was born, it was not neccessarily considered worthy of life unless it was of the right race (Psalm 137:9). Thus, for one who reads the Bible, the issue of the sanctity of life is very muddy. I think it remains a difficult issue. For example, if life begins at conception, when during conception does it begin? Conception is, after all, a process. Is it ethical to "kill" the egg before it is fully fertilized? Is it ethical to "kill" the embryo if it is not able to attach itself to the uterus? Is it ethical to "kill" the embryo if it is not receiving the hormone needed to maintain the pregnancy? My position is one born of humble soul-searching and questioning. I do not think I am capable of fully understanding what God wants in every facet of human life. If I was, I would be Jesus. Liberals simply acknowledge uncertainty and seek to bridge gaps. This does not mean they cannot be Christians. I had to laugh when I heard you say that gay people could not seek the Kingdom of God, because they are too focused on their own pleasure. I know a young man who knows for a fact he is gay, and also loves Christ with all of his being. I'll have to tell him he is too selfish to truly seek God.

Here is a link from an excellent article written by Hank Hanegraaff that discerns the differences between civil and ceremonial laws and exactly what Jesus nullified or qualified (which I see as part of God's perfect plan as opposed to God "changing rules as he goes along"-- and this process is bible-based, as opposed to conservatives making it up to explain away what others may feel are contradictions). The article is a biblical response to a speech the TV president of "The West Wing" gave. The full article can be found at the address below and is well worth reading in its entirety-- you may find it extremely helpful:

http://www.equip.org/free/DP801.htm

It's also worth getting a bible with extensive study notes, as some things in the bible, such as the passage about women covering their heads during worship, are clearly region, custom/tradition and time-centric-- Paul advised that for very specific reasons having to do with that particular church's need for discipline and
order. There are many such passages which clearly relate to a specific time and place for a specific reason only; while others surely have applications to our lives today. I do hope you read the full article and that you find it edifying; it could really inform and perhaps even change the way you view scripture.

this article does an outstanding job of making my case for me. essentially, the article argues that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, since certain requirements of the law were fulfilled by the death of christ. first of all, i don't know if god has a specific mathematical/spiritual formula that required Him to substitute Christ in for "the law", but He might. It does seem rather human, though. Secondly, I don't see the logical pattern of "things christ abolished" vs. "things we still have to worry about". It is often argued that Christ's sacrifice did away the ceremonial aspects of the law, keeping only the civil aspects. Fine, but you still have to explain why we don't adhere to certain social customs such as levirate marriage. Most people would argue, like this article does, that this due to a cultural custom that was appropriate for those people at that time. Good. I agree. What's amazing is when Christians refuse to accept this viewpoint for issues like homosexuality. You're a liberal until you run into homosexuality, then you become a fundamentalist? Why can't Paul's screed against homosexuality be "for very specific reasons having to do with that particular church's need for discipline and order"? One can't simply pick and choose, saying certain laws are universal while others are temporary. For example, polygamy was pretty well-established in the Old Testament. It was just the way things were. Why isn't this one of those universal laws? Or what about owning concubines? God seemed Ok with it in the Old Testament, so why are we allowed to just change the rules? Why isn't James Dobson marching outside the Capitol, requiring Congress to pass legislation forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist? God clearly tells us His plan in Deuteronomy 22:28-29, right? This is the problem with deciding that certain ancient laws apply to us and others don't. Whether the scripture is in the Old Testament or in one of the epistles, it is a product of man, inspired by God. The trick is to be able to identify God's voice (Love one another, seek wisdom, etc.) and Man's voice (slavery is ok, men are better than women). If Paul's anti-gay comments are God's truth (as many Christians seem to believe), then are his rules against women as leaders in the church also God's truth?

Now you have to explain how God seemed okay with polygamy and concubines. I had wondered about the Old Testament accounts of polygamy/concubines myself, and consulted some bible scholars and pastors about it, who noted that just because it was something that was happening, it wasn't "condoned" by God, but rather something that God had to live with because of men's hardended hearts. Here's a piece of a longer article I found that puts it more clearly:

> The plural marriages of Abraham, David, and Solomon have never (at least to my knowledge) been depicted by mainstream Christian pastors, Bible teachers, and theologians as non-problematic, or in other words, completely acceptable. On the contrary, Old Testament polygamy is commonly viewed by Christians as an ungodly lifestyle compromise that God tolerated due to the hardness of men's hearts, similar to the way divorce was tolerated (Mark 10:4-5).

The Bible itself depicts various instances of polygamy as examples of men straying from righteousness. David, for instance, fed his lust to the point of taking the wife of a man whom he then had murdered (i.e., Uriah). Solomon showed disobedience by taking multiple wives, which in turn contributed to his fall into idolatry. And Abraham not only disobeyed God, but demonstrated a lack of faith in God's promises by impregnating Hagar. His act reflects the pagan practices of his surrounding culture. As The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states:

In Mesopotamia, marriage contracts frequently specified that a wife who proved infertile should give her handmaid to her husband in order to produce children for the household. This situation underlies the procedure whereby Sarah's handmaid Hagar was given by her to Abraham as a wife (Gen. 16:3) for purposes of procreation. In accepting this polygamous relationship Abraham was acceding to local custom rather than obeying the divine decree or trusting God's promise to him concerning descendants [vol. 3, 901]. <

The most telling things here are the fact that men's hearts were/are hardened, and that most of these depictions are shown in an unfavorable light; that of men going astray.

I try to take the bible as a whole. I look first to see what the message was to a particular people at a particular time, I check to see if that situation was ammended through Christ's work on earth and on the cross, and I see how it applies. I try my best to discern between the literal historical passages, the poetic passages and the hyperbolic passages. All the while, I'm seeking God's voice. Read that way, the bible's stating that polygamy/concubines were a fact of life in Old Testament days doesn't amount to God's condoning of such lifestyles. We agree it's God's voice, we're just hearing it differently. Again, big picture-- if woman was created for a purpose, to be a companion to man and later, once sin entered the world to procreate and in God's plan it all fits together (literally and figuratively, regarding both sex for pleasure and sex for childbirth-- biologically the woman is designed to accomodate the man... same sex partners can't procreate and I'm sorry, any doctor will tell you that rear entry isn't the best way to go-- can lead to so many problems because it wasn't designed that way). Also, don't confuse "love" and "tolerance." Science keeps trying to come up with a gene/DNA that will suggest homosexuality is heriditary. All they keep coming up with, however, is lack of both (male & femal) parent figures (either absent altogether or just a parent who's not that involved, not a strong figure) and/or abuse. This is another fact that I think backs up the bible. So getting back to love, I don't think homosexuality is a natural act that pleases God. BUT I DO have homosexual friends. And I LOVE these friends. I just don't condone their lifestyle. Same as if any good friend of mine became a heroin addict. I certainly would continue to love them. But I wouldn't condone their heroin use. Am I intolerant? Am I showing hate instead of love? I don't think so. It's all about big picture. Dig deeper. You'll see it in the pages of the bible. Real love is pointing others toward Christ, helping those in need, orphans, widows and the lost. The bible happens to be real clear about the lost. And it's not just homosexuals that the bible singles out. How about all that premarital sex? I'm sure many of us on this board have been guilty of that. I have. God hates that, just like he hates all sin, and its as much of a sin as homosexuality. If I had friends who decided to cohabitate outside of marriage, I'd still love them, but I wouldn't applaud their decision to live together. See, same thing. Big picture. The world's trying to convince you otherwise, but it's all in God's word.

Actually, to be completely honest, I listened to the "world" for years and believed that being gay was a perversion. It wasn't until I read Christ's words about spiritual humility and leaving judgment to God that I began to rethink my position. As far as your comment regarding causes of homosexuality (lack of proper parenting and/or abuse), again I have to take issue. My brother is 4 years older than I. My parents are fantastic, strong, loving, and involved. My dad coached our sports teams while our mom was PTA president. We were never abused, neglected, or mistreated. We spent all our time together and our family is incredibly close. My brother is gay, and anyone who has known him since birth will tell you he has always been gay. It's hard to explain, but knowing him personally means knowing that he's gay. I, on the other hand, am straight. I always felt I was different from brother in a significant way, and I now see that this was due to our different orientations. I don't know if there is a gay gene, but I do know 2 things: First, my brother cannot help being gay. He is not like a heroin addict, since a heroin addict chooses to try heroin. My brother never chose to be gay, just as I never chose to be straight. Second, my parents had no control over my brother's sexuality. I don't know if Freud was right about our parents determing our sexual identities, but even if he was, my parents did not raise my brother any differently than they raised me, so we can't "blame" them. As far as God "living with" polygamy, it just doesn't make sense to me. David's heart was perfect before the Lord, yet he was a polygamist! If God can "overlook" David's polygamy, why can't He "overlook" the fact that the person my brother has been in a committed, monogamous relationship with for three years is male? And why does God put up with this particular sin? Usually, in the Old Testament, God doesn't put up with any sin at all. He has to enforce His will, under the law. If polygamy is a sin, wouldn't God have punished it? Am I really supposed to believe that the omnipotent source of unconditional love in the cosmos just sat there and watched women and little girls being treated like objects, never telling the Israelites to CUT IT OUT? It doesn't make sense, unless you see the customs and social structure of the Old Testament as products of people who had flaws but were mostly trying to live with God. I don't doubt that you have love, but I have a hard time believing that it's loving to tell gay people that they can't come to God as they are. The problem with Christians today is they pick and choose the things to crusade against, and most of the time they pick sex. While sexual sin is definitely important, it was not priority number one for Christ. Why don't I see Christian groups protesting oustide of major corporations, denouncing them for their greed? Why don't I see Christians in the trenches of our inner cities, teaching peace and nonviolence to gang members? Why don't I see religious lobbyists calling for an end to hunger, poverty, and AIDS in Africa? Aren't these the things Christ spent all his time talking about?

I can't explain the things you say, and only God knows for sure what the case is with your brother (a "choice" may be a deeper thing than anyone realizes or can even express properly in human terms). But my point was that we ALL come to Christ as we are, and that is in a sin condition, whether you're straight or gay. One point you make that I do agree with is that Christians should be protesting wayward corporations. On the other hand, I live in the New York City area and I can assure you there are Christians working with inner city kids/gang members, and Christians involved in the hunger, poverty and Aids epidemics, both in the US and AFrica. I can't vouch for the legislation, but I know there are bodies in the places they need to be spreading love and the word, and I know there are organizations that additionally address those problems through donations. And I know there's a whole lot of people praying. To take hope and comfort in that. It may not change the bad things you see-- and there are plenty of bad things Christians do (often by doing nothing at all), but the good exists as well.

I reread your post and in doing so, something jumped out at me. I hope what I'm about to write doesn't offend you-- I certainly don't mean to offend you. I hope you will just take it as the thoughts of another brother. All I have are your words in front of me, so that is my starting point.

Regarding your brother, you mention that "anyone who has known him since birth will tell you he has always been gay." I let that sink in and it only leads me to this conjecture: perhaps his homosexuality was a choice, but a choice that was made (or at least initiated) by others. In other words, other people decided that they recognized what they felt were homosexual traits and coddled that direction. This conjecture comes out of an experience in my own life. I went to school with a guy from Kindergarten through 12th Grade. Everybody... I mean EVERYBODY was sure this kid was gay because, well, because anyone who ever knew him just knew, like you said. Shock of shocks: we just had our 20th reunion and it turns out he's married with kids, and it doesn't seem like a lie/beard for an instant. I'm not doubting that sometimes, probably as a result of our fallen human condition, people are born with a hormonal imbalance that makes it appear they lean one way or not the other. I just think that what you do with that-- or rather, the external forces that react to it, whether it be encouragement of what's perceived as a same-sex tendency or just not being around as a parent to show both sides of the parental coin-- may have a lot to do with the outcome.

Regarding another specific point you make: I think God DID deal with the polygamy/concubine issues in His own way, by making specific people examples of the wrath he felt about those actions. David's life was no cakewalk after the adultery/murder incident. In fact, it never had the same unblemished glory again. It was tainted. David came back to God, but he was certainly tormented, fractured and convicted of his sin... and had to endure much heartache before dying.
I don't see much merit in me further discussing how different people interpret the bible in different ways, or what exactly constitutes sin. Instead, I think the better route here is to just relate my own personal experience, as I know first hand of how powerful the conviction of the holy spirit can be. I am a Christian who went down a dark road for quite a while and while I've finally given in to the Father who was always faithful, always calling me back, the many blessings I'm now receiving are at once glorious and yet a tad bittersweet, tempered with a healthy dose of conviction. And rightfully so-- it's what I deserve.

I was "born again" when I was 8. I feel for children who come to the Lord early like I did, because if ever there's prey for Satan to devour like a lion, it's a child. I was doing pretty good in my walk... until puberty hit. From then on, it was hit and miss. I alternated from being faithful to the Lord to being a sophomoric, hormonally-charged teen who always had sex on his mind and his lips. Somehow, I managed to limit it to thoughts, words and visual stimuli until I was 23. But more on that in a bit. I wound up going to art school. My first year, miraculously, I held onto my convictions and even did art projects that glorified the Lord. That didn't last. Little by little, the liberal attitudes about "doing your own thing" permeated my brain, to the point that ultimately I was looking the other way at all sorts of behavior. Getting back to sex, I think in my last year of college, I finally took the plunge. In a typical deceived-by-Satan move, my girlfriend (an unbeliever) and I "did everything but." And that's how I completely justified it to the Lord-- what a fool I was. "Oh, it's just this stuff, not the whole 9 yards." No, that came later... a short year later! Then there was no turning back. With only occasional (and very brief) returns to prayer/bible reading/church, I pretty much spent 1988 through 2001, even into 2002 in serious backslide. I doubt I went to church for worship (not counting holidays or weddings) more than 5 times during those 13+ years! There were times during that period when I heard from the Lord, calling me back, asking me to repent, but I never submitted to His will. Things were always up and down with my girlfriend, and of course when there was trouble-- when we were in danger of breaking up-- like a hypocrite I'd pray "please don't let us break up." Never realizing that it's not up to me-- God has His own plans for me and a specific woman he wants me to be with. But the root of any sin is personal choice, especially since it usually disregards God's will, of course. Long story short, my girlfriend, who had become my fiancée' along the way (we were engaged 7 years) decided for a change of pace she'd be with someone else-- a married guy no less. That devastated me. Did I repent after that messy breakup? Hey, I would have to be smart to have done that. No, instead I started dating around and found a really nice girl that I became seriously involved with, and got back on the sexual merry-go-round. Then 9/11 hit and all the end times stuff I heard about as a kid resurfaced in my brain. But it didn't instantaneously bring me to a place of complete repentance. It did work on me, though, and little by little I started feeling more and more convicted over how I was living my life. It was only when my best friend's mother died and I flew off to mourn with his family did everything come together. Most of my friend's family are very devout Christians, and the way they were able to handle the grief as well as the gospel message I heard while I was there really was the jolt I needed. I made the decision right there to turn back to God. I flew back home and eventually screwed up the courage to tell my girlfriend that I couldn't justify the sexual part of our relationship any longer. To my pleasant surprise, she said she didn't understand completely but that since she loved me, she'd comply. What a blessing! We were engaged just shy of a year of that and abstained for 21 months leading into the wedding (and along the way, she found the Lord as well!). It was tough but by following it God's way, it's proved to be a real blessing.

Now, I mentioned before the work of the holy spirit. Because of that work, a few other things happened. First, the good: regarding the bible, when I made a firm decision to recommit myself to the Lord, it was like I'd never been away. I knew more things about the bible than I'm even sure I ever knew! My guess is that the sermons I had heard over the years had sunk into the deep recesses of my mind and the power of the holy spirit drew them out again. It was like those 13 wasted years never happened, and I can only credit God's grace and the holy spirit in that aspect-- I was brought back up to speed very quickly, and have progressed further since then. On the other hand, I'm still a man who struggles with the thought life, as many men do. Only now, I feel the conviction of the holy spirit more because I'm in communion, communication with Christ instead of being unfaithful to Him like I was when I was in backslide mode. I feel it tremendously. I am immensely grieved when I give into sin via immoral thoughts. I still have a long way to go! And that's the point: we're not completely free of sin, completely sanctified until we're with the Lord. Until then, the Lord takes that burden and becomes our bridge to heaven... and he expects us to attempt to be as Christ-like as possible while we're still on earth, to grow as much as possible toward the goal, even though we can never fully achieve it while here on earth. Our eyes and our hearts should be turned to the Lord. To me, the conviction of the holy spirit rights me when I'm off track, and guides me towards the right direction. It also means not turning a blind eye towards the things that grieve the Lord, yet at the same time realizing we're all sinners and reaching out to everyone in love. That's what I mean when I say that I love my gay friends despite not agreeing with their lifestyle based on my understanding of the bible-- I would never turn any of them away. They need my love and support as individual people, and that's not based on the decisions they make anymore than straight friends who do things that I don't feel square with the bible.

And again, all of this is a growing process, and we're going to make mistakes and sometimes fall into old sins again. But once you're on that road, the Lord presents other things you need to learn. For example, most recently the Lord spoke to me... it seems like every day for months... every time I opened a bible or heard a preacher on the radio or whatnot, the sermon seemed to be about forgiveness, and specifically how if you carry a heart in your heart, that's a form of unforgiveness, too. I was stubborn for a while, but finally I woke up one morning and said "I'm going to contact my ex and put everything behind us." Backtracking a bit to give you proper background, what I had done was this: after our breakup, we still kept sporadic touch through email. But it always bothered me, especially after she wound up getting married. Once she got married, I used that as an excuse to say our contact wasn't appropriate, but deep down inside I was still very hurt over what had happened and I guess I never forgave her 100%. What I wound up doing was changing my email address (which was the only up-to-date contact info she had for me at that point) and basically cut her off for close to 2 years. But the Lord said that was wrong-- it's an unforgiveness. I finally submitted to the Lord's will, made contact again and that weight that the holy spirit had convicted me of is finally gone.

I wrote all of the above for one main reason: it's always got to be about His will. When we try to twist things so that they fit for our own ends and desires, it doesn't work. The holy spirit will convict us if we're keeping in touch with God. I know I don't want to backslide so much that my communication with God is all but nil again (there's nothing worse than being out of fellowship with God-- where's that passage about prayers being heard and not heard-- Psalms, maybe?). That was a horrible period. Being back on track has meant backing up views that are not popular with the masses, but ultimately by doing God's will, His grace and love will shine through even to those whose lifestyles you disagree with. It shines through because we're all in the same sinking boat, and the only universal life raft is Jesus.

Just correcting my last post-- I meant to type "if you carry a HURT in your heart," not a "heart in your heart"... :)

NYCOPYGUY
I stumbled onto this blog site after seeing a Brad Stine DVD loaned to me by a friend. I have spent a good deal of my workday reading the posts here. INTERESTING reading indeed! Thanks for the reference to the Hank Hanegraaff article. I have read it and can't wait to take a copy to my husband. My thoughts, my emotions, and my convictions have been stirred by the comments of all on this site. I, too, have a homosexual brother, whom I love dearly. After years (He is 52) of alcoholism and workaholism, he has come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. As he is a new student of Scripture, he has not faced head on and addressed the issue of homosexuality, but he is living a celebate life. Prior to becoming a Christian, he was an executive with Bell South in Atlanta, GA. He retired at age 49 and his life became almost a constant drunken stupor until he came to Jesus. Now, he is attending classes to become a Certified Nursing Assistant (Of all things!!!). He says he wants to give back to society and he "wants to bring Christ to all the patients that he serves." Talk about a life transformed!

Anyway, I'm new here and just wanted to introduce myself with these remarks. Now I will go read the "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" by Santinover recommended by another responder. (Maybe Uncle Buck--Sorry, I have forgotten who recomended it.) I'm new, remember. Barbara

wow, that same concept about Beethoven and a bunch of other famous people (who had mothers that were in a situation where they could choose abort) was brought up at WinterFest last year. I am a HUGE fan of Beethoven (i'm learning sonata in G right now on the piano) and it really makes me wonder what wonderful lives the poor innocent unborn babies are being deprived of... so very saddening that the world is loosing thousands of composers, artists, presidents, poets, writers, pastors, and even pro life activists, every day in a holocaust movement we call abortion. the spirit of Hitler lives in the abortion clinics of America. i'm a survivor of this massacre and thank God everyday that my parents didnt make me pay for any sin that they may have committed!!! God Bless and have mercy on our nation.
-chalms

Thank you for sharing your testimony. My story is the combination of you and your wife. Your responses absolutely right on. I just wanted to tell you thank you :)

Garrett, Thank you for your testimony. I also bear the mark of inappropriate sexual relations from never being taught different. I can identify with you and your wife. thank you for sharing!

As a minister and someone who holds Scripture to be of the highest importance in the formulation of belief and thought, I would be fascinated to hear your "deeply personal understanding of God's Word" that is pro-choice and/or pro homosexual marriage. I'm not necessarily sure that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so, I just want to know your thoughts.

first of all, i give you credit for treating me with respect and thank you for your willingness to listen.....secondly, my point is not that the bible is pro-choice...i dont think it is.....my point is that the bible doesnt have a position on abortion, since abortion as it is done today was unknown to the ancient Israelites.....the bible sends us some mixed messages about the sanctity of life....on the one hand, god tells us that we are his children and nothing can stop his love for us...on the other hand, he wants us to wipe out every man, woman, and child of the nations that oppose us....any thoughtful person could see that our scripture contains evidence of human perspective......likewise, i dont know of a single bible verse that says its okay for two men to get married, but my understanding of God's Word has led me to believe that, above all, God treasures committment, love, and respect....Jesus lived in a time when homosexuality was accepted in Greek culture, and surely would have come across people who were engaging in homosexual acts, yet He never said a Word about it....what does this mean? i don't know......but i do know from experience that loving God while rejecting gay people is difficult and soul-wrenching.....we have to be careful, liberals and conservatives, that we don't simply try to twist scripture to fit our political agenda....i could not dare to claim that the Bible wholly endorses all of my political convictions, but i do feel that scripture should be approached humbly and that we should always be ready to listen.

Loved your opening. However, the Democratic party you admire and whose leaders you numbered is NOT the party of today. I follow politics very closely. Zell Miller, ex-Democratic Senator from Georgia, endorsed President Bush and wrote a best seller, "A National Party No More". His party (and yours) has been hijacked by the FAR left and I'll just leave it at that.

Re: women and abortion? Hmm. Unwanted pregnancy? Let's see, didn't I choose "life" when I decided to have sex?
Re: gay marriage? Yep, be fruitful and multiply.
Re: homosexuality? "I was born that way" No, you were recruited. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Oh, that's right! It must be OK because Jesus never said anything about it. Hmm. Let's see, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning." (John 1) If this is so, perhaps all those warnings in Leviticus came from Jesus?

You are right. Probably most Christians don't see Scripture the way you do. Hint...hint. Perhaps you need to renew your mind with His truth instead of being deceived by the world. Seriously, as Christians we are born of the same Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. It seems to me you are letting your "feelings" guide your thoughts instead of the truth of God's Word.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" --Proverbs 14:12 In His love, ziobuck (Uncle Buck

The smugness with which you chose to respond is disheartening.....It seems that the least we owe each other is a modicum of respect....As far as parties are concerned, I'm a proud Democrat, but my identity lies more in my ideals than some political party.....Your comments are very pithy, but I think they probably simply the issues far too much....Victims of rape do not choose to have sex.....Marriage is not just some tool for reproduction (We are not animals)......And as far as recruiting is concerned, I am sincerely interested in how it is one goes about deliberately crafting human sexuality.....To my knowledge, no one recruited my brother to be gay....If anything, he was surrounded by convincing arguments for heterosexuality (which seem to have convinced me).......I do not believe everything in the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, which is why I do not believe in slavery or punishing adulterers by stoning them.....This is my view...If you disagree, fine...But please do not pretend to know my soul......Don't pronounce me "deceived".......Its the least you can do

Spaceship:
Please spare me the "disheartening" line. You have plenty of "digs" in your entries to "dishearten" the conservatives. But, guess what? I'm not!
If you are going to put out provocative statements, expect provocative replies.
I'm sorry you misperceived my comments as smugness. Yes, I have certitude in my understanding of God's word. He is not a God of confusion but of order. Your comments, I find, generally "muddy" His word. Also, the superiority part of the smugness definition is not me. I am a nobody, Spaceship. My identity is not political, economical, positional, or otherwise. I am a child of the living God. That is who I am and what I believe and "Christ in me" is my only hope of glory.
Proud democrat? Fine, but you'll recall that God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Victims of rape? Are you inferring they should abort their children? God's favorite thing to do is to turn something horrible into something miraculous and wonderful. The baby doesn't have to be a victim also.
Recruiting gays? All I know is a loving God would not create a homosexual and then tell him not to practice it. You and your brother need to read a sensitve commentary about homosexuality by Santinover (1999) called, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth". You will be amazed how programmed we've become by our culture the past 25 years.
I'll cede your point about marriage not being just a tool for reproduction. It isn't just about sexual gratification either. BTW, homosexuality, adultery, bigomey, incest, etc, are all sins. God doesn't grade on a curve and neither do I. We all fall short of His glory. My problem is with liberal Christians who try to change God's word to fit their agenda, or use secular anthropolists/psychologists to help them rationalize their position. Do you think these guys have "the mind of Christ"?
We are not animals? (No dig there) I didn't know that. Animals can't help themselves. They are programmed by God to be what they are. We are programmed to make free choices. Do you think all Christians don't have struggles with temptations of the flesh (yeah, including homosexuality)? That's why we need God.
You are right. I don't know your soul. This I do know. A wise Christian counselor told me never to presume anyone's salvation. There are plenty of church goers who do NOT have a relationship with the Lord, but who have the Christian lingo down pat. I pray you are not one of those people. What I think (that you're deceive) doesn't matter. I grew a lot in my 17 years of walking with the Lord and have changed my views quite a bit from when I started. Perhaps you will too. We'll just end here and "agree to disagree".
In prayer, ziobuck (aka Uncle Buck).

Spaceship:
Please spare me the "disheartening" line. You have plenty of "digs" in your entries to "dishearten" the conservatives. But, guess what? I'm not!
If you are going to put out provocative statements, expect provocative replies.
I'm sorry you misperceived my comments as smugness. Yes, I have certitude in my understanding of God's word. He is not a God of confusion but of order. Your comments, I find, generally "muddy" His word. Also, the superiority part of the smugness definition is not me. I am a nobody, Spaceship. My identity is not political, economical, positional, or otherwise. I am a child of the living God. That is who I am and what I believe and "Christ in me" is my only hope of glory.
Proud democrat? Fine, but you'll recall that God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Victims of rape? Are you inferring they should abort their children? God's favorite thing to do is to turn something horrible into something miraculous and wonderful. The baby doesn't have to be a victim also.
Recruiting gays? All I know is a loving God would not create a homosexual and then tell him not to practice it. You and your brother need to read a sensitve commentary about homosexuality by Santinover (1999) called, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth". You will be amazed how programmed we've become by our culture the past 25 years.
I'll cede your point about marriage not being just a tool for reproduction. It isn't just about sexual gratification either. BTW, homosexuality, adultery, bigomey, incest, etc, are all sins. God doesn't grade on a curve and neither do I. We all fall short of His glory. My problem is with liberal Christians who try to change God's word to fit their agenda, or use secular anthropolists/psychologists to help them rationalize their position. Do you think these guys have "the mind of Christ"?
We are not animals? (No dig there) I didn't know that. Animals can't help themselves. They are programmed by God to be what they are. We are programmed to make free choices. Do you think all Christians don't have struggles with temptations of the flesh (yeah, including homosexuality)? That's why we need God.
You are right. I don't know your soul. This I do know. A wise Christian counselor told me never to presume anyone's salvation. There are plenty of church goers who do NOT have a relationship with the Lord, but who have the Christian lingo down pat. I pray you are not one of those people. What I think (that you're deceived) doesn't matter. I grew a lot in my 13 years of walking with the Lord (I'm 52 year young) and have changed my views quite a bit from when I started. Perhaps you will too. Be honest with God and yourself. Pray. We'll just end here and "agree to disagree".
In His grace, ziobuck (aka Uncle Buck).

Funny how the debate is usually about actions, as opposed to the root of the issue. While I cannot judge people EXCEPT by their actions, their actions have a root cause - the heart. The political and social freedom we enjoy in this country is the result of the hearts of the founding fathers who sought freedom of religion. The idea of religious freedom stems from Jesus own words, "if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36). However, freedom has/had a cost. Spiritual freedom cost Jesus His human life and our political/social freedom cost many a soldier's life. That's what makes it so valuable - it is paid for in blood.
But freedom brings with it responsibility, and here is where I believe many people get off track. Yes, I am free to act as I wish (in this great country, at least), and as long as I am within the law of the land, I'm OK. But our Spiritual freedom has a higher standard and a more powerful law-giver (His name is God, and I call Him Dad), as just as I ought to obey the speed limit to avoid a penalty in my hometown, I should also obey God's law to avoid His penalty (or, since the price for ALL my sin has been paid IN FULL, it's really consequences I seek to avoid).
Once we realize that there is a higher standard (and standard-giver) to consider, it should change our perspective greatly. Then we will seek to do what pleases God, as opposed to simply avoiding a traffic ticket or jail time. God's law is of the heart, His m.o. is Grace and Mercy, but He has very high standards for us to follow - especially we who bear the name Christian (or "little Christ"). Political law can only govern the action - God's law is designed for the heart (the root of action). God's law is to love God and His creation - all of it, including nature (for all you environmentalists), people (for all you humanitarians) and governmental structure (for all of us - see Isaiah 9:6 for Whose shoulder government rests!).
So, if you wish to engage in abortion, consider what God thinks about it. If He is the GIVER of life, who is allowed to take it away? If you wish to engage in homosexuality, again, consider what God says about it (I believe He made a comment or two about men lying with men). If you wish to strip an area of its forest to have lumber and industry, consider what God thinks about creation and nature (look to the psalms). God loves what He made - even sinners like me. Since He made a way for me to have fellowship with Him (imagine that!), then I ought to pay attention to what He says in His Word and let that dictate my actions.
James said that faith without works is dead, and true faith is shown BY works. It still comes to a heart issue - and if your heart is not actively seeking fellowship with God (through Jesus via the Holy Spirit), then you are on the wrong track and even a HELMET won't help you!
I never understood how abortion and homosexuality could be such a divisive issue within the church (as a whole) - until I looked at the churches mentioned in Revelation. Here you have the spectrum of churches - some good, some lazy and/or selfish - and Jesus himself rebukes the problems and praises what's worthy of Him. I am grateful to not be a part of the denomination game (I attend an independent Bible-believing church in southern NJ) so I do not have a hierarchical body pushing their agenda down my throat (and why are the African Anglicans withdrawing support for the American 'mother' church?).
Unfortunately, we are all mere sinners after our own satisfaction. When we as a people wake up and realize the truth of Jesus' words, then we will act on our 'true religion' (see James 1:27) and serve one another with clean hearts. Issues like abortion will be marginalized (and possibly reduced to 'zero' as the other respondent mentioned) and homosexuality will no longer be appealing because we as people will seek to please the Creator and not ourselves.
At the risk of over-repition, it is the HEART that stirs us to our actions - good and bad. The biggest problem is that this heart cannot be trusted (see Jeremiah 17:9), so we have to go to an outside source - Scripture!
If my actions are consistent with Scripture, then my actions won't be CONFUSING to the world whom I am trying to reach for His Kingdom.

Enjoyed your comments. Amen.

Maybe liberal Christians see the pain and inequality in the world and want to fix it. A redistribution of wealth so the poor wouldnt be poor anymore.... I don't know. I think its a short sighted view. If you redistributed wealth people would stop generating it. A childs dependance on its mother doesnt stop at birth, just ask the parent of a teen. As for a fetus being just a mass of tissue, I've had my appendix for 46 years now and I've never had to read it a bed time story.

As with gay marriage, again no one is taking the long view. If you legalize same sex marriage, you gotta legalize any type and let all the guys out of jail that are doing time for polygamy. Because if two guys can get married, why not three? It will happen.

I talked to a christian man at promise keepers once. He stated that he was gay, felt gay, was inclined to be attracted to men, and fought it everyday of his life. By the scriptures, and by Gods law written on his heart he came to the determination that though he was dealt a hand that appeared unfair and extremely hard to live with, he had chosen to not have relations with men. He stated everyday is a battle for me. I also was born with a very addictive personality, and prior to being saved I battled and often times invited various habits, some of them nearly ending in death. I do believe by knowing so many people as children that appeared to be for lack of a better description, (acting gay, or feminine actions leading one to believe they might be). And I cannot determine for the life of me from what I read if there is a missing or added chromosome, or if the way they were raised has lead them towards this lifestyle, or If the sins of there forefathers has caused a ripple affect or whatever. But from the conversation with that man I came to the determination, that each and every one of us battle a sin nature that hopefully is revealed to us through the LAW OF GOD, and that upon learning that we have actually angered our creator. And we realize the depth of our lawlessness. That hopefully, we will understand our need for a savior. Repent and forsake, I mean actually work on our sin nature. Actually strive to do what God asks us to. To the point where we may be able to hear, Good job faithful servant. I really want to hear that. The thought of responding to this blog actually made me feel anxious. At first I just wanted to read, and leave. But I believe we serve a just God. I believe we are saved by faith, but will be judged by what we've done. And I believe it's what we've done about our sin. You may have heard this before but true repentance and the understanding of your own sin is really the only way you can truly be floored to your knees, and have that heart of repentance. That true brokeness is the only way you can understand just exactly how important it is to have a savior. And then to pick up your cross and actually follow him. Paul knew it, I would not have known sin, if not by the law. The judge will not let you go because you washed his car prior to court. This is the part where I am supposed to apologize for preaching. I will not. Our judge is an honest and fair judge, and he will make sure justice is served. I believe that I have clearly broken a majority of the Laws, and when I broke one, I had broken all ten. I believe that Jesus came into the courtroom, and though I was guilty, he paid my fine. And I believe that out of respect for what he has done, I will try my hardest through him not to keep committing the same crimes over, and over. I will fear God enough, to expect judgment, and I will put on the parachute of Jesus not to make the ride smoother, but because the planes going down. And when the stewardess comes by and drops hot coffee on my lap. I will not stand up in disgust, take off the parachute, and throw it to the ground saying "stupid parachute". If anything, I will grip the parachute even tighter, and actually look forward to my eventual jump. May God bless you all.